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Re: [atheists-55] Fwd: [EastsideAtheists] British commedian comments on idea of mosque at Ground Zero

From: Stu C.
Sent on: Monday, July 19, 2010 9:06 PM
Apologies to actual students of history. I'm sorry this has gone on so long and clogged your inboxes. This is my last.


False flag attempts are precedents and need to be understood. How about Operation Northwoods?

Anyone who says or agrees with the following has a serious social disconnect and extreme lack of compassion.?

"I want to note that I'm not complaining about any of this, I like it this way. I don't mind 3000?people exploding every once in a while, that's just the price of freedom."


And David Ray Griffin is a solid researcher. Howard Zinn even wrote a review for his latest and encouraged further investigation. Is Howard Zinn insane as well?

NORAD has been scrambling jets for years. Remember Payne Stewart (the golfer) and his flight? That was '99 and jets were sent to investigate.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/daily/oct99/crash26.htm

And I did oversimplify when I wrote all of DC as a no-fly, I meant over the target buildings specifically and by Langley I meant Arlington, in my power-outagged tiredness I mixed up the CIA and DOD.

The Pentagon is surround by SAM for self-defense, not to take down planes elsewhere. That's what the F-16s are for if deemed necessary. And explain the size of the hole v. the size of a 757.

And the bin Laden FBI page showed his charge under the "caution" section and it was revised in Nov. 01 and it did not include 9/11. That's all I was saying.

Jet fuel does not burn hot enough to melt steel.

A passport on an individual's body in one of the crashed planes would not make it to the bottom of the center in an identifiable condition, especially when first responders and witnesses saw little to no recognizable office materials.

A third building collapsing without major fires and without major damage is indeed important. How you can say it's not is beyond me.

I think some of us should put down our Sam Harris or Hitchens and read up on some history, and maybe hold off on the personal attacks unless they're warranted. I understand your fervor. I thought the same way. But look at the collapse of building 7 and pre-collapse pictures and explain to yourself how it could have come down like that.


Don't be scared into not investigating this...or anything, ever. Again, why we're atheists because we looked into what our minds thought was curious. And I'm not a paranoid contrarian but I suppose it's my opinion against yours on that so okay.

1200+ Architects and Engineers who think the official story to be suspect:
http://www.ae911truth.org/


I'm done. Good day.




On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 2:48 PM, Nishikant Deshmukh <[address removed]> wrote:
Dear friends,

Just found another video, I haven't seen it myself, thought we watch it at the same time ;)

http://www.ted.com/talks/devdutt_pattanaik.html


Best Regards,
Nishikant Deshmukh
Graduate Student
Johns Hopkins University Homewood Campus




On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 11:16 AM, roger leilich <[address removed]> wrote:
just a thought....."you can't reason out what's not reasoned in."
roger


----- Original Message -----
From: Doug <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Mon, 19 Jul[masked]:01:46 -0000 (UTC)
Subject: Re: [atheists-55] Fwd: [EastsideAtheists] British commedian comments??on idea of mosque at Ground Zero

Response interlaced. Enjoy :)

On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Stu C. <[address removed]> wrote:
The actual irony is that atheists are so because they've woken up to the fact that what they've been told is a lie, yet some of us still buy what the media tells us.

This is a fallacy.? Just because one thing you have been told is a lie doesn't mean everything is. It's not either all truth or all lies.? Life's not that simple.
?

By "most protected' I did indeed mean militarily because it's standard procedure to have F-16s investigate off-course jetliners/planes yet none did so that day. And DC/Langley is a no-fly zone so how did a jetliner cruise in and bypass the Pentagon's surface-to-air missiles? Thought of that?

No... just no, where are you getting any of this?

DC has an airport in the middle of it. Literally right next to the pentagon. It's not a no fly zone. Planes are flying around DC constantly. They have never fired a surface to air missile at any off course jet liner, ever.

The DC Air defense Identification zone was implemented in 2003 as a RESPONSE to the 9/11 attacks. Nothing like it existed previously.

Only SINCE 9/11 have military planes shadowed aircraft that were not following there flight plan and not in radio contact.

Also, Langley is in Norfolk, VA. Outside of the ADIZ.
?

And how did we know they were boxcutters? Who said? One cell phone call from one flight, maybe? And 2001 phones from 30,000 feet could not make clear calls, let alone calls at all. And who calls his mom and says "it's me, mark bingham". Give me a break.
?
Who cares if they were box cutters or what? they had.? Are you asserting that it's impossible to hijack a plane? What are you asserting exactly? Honestly I would like to know your full version of what exactly you think happened.


?

Go to the FBI website. Bin Laden has still not been charged with 9/11.

umm... what? what does that even mean?
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/fugitives/laden.htm


what the fuck is that? Not specific enough for you? can you show me an example of the formal charges on the FBI website against some other criminal as an example of what you are looking for here?


And the 19 "hijackers" are nowhere on the passenger list and one of their passports was "found" in the tower wreckage. Are you kidding me? Unscathed passport? Think about it.

I'm thinking about it and what exactly do you think that means then? The planes hijacked themselves?

Everything you bring up has been thoroughly debunked already ad nauseam, just read this on the passenger list thing. In fact read that whole website, you might learn something.
http://www.911myths.com/index.php/No_hijackers_on_the_passenger_manifests

As far as the passport, shit happens...? deal
?

And there is indeed motive for building 7 considering it housed CIA and NSA offices/documents.

So your theory is their shredder was broken so they planted explosives throughout the entire building and blew it up?? That really doesn't seem like the easiest way to get rid of documents.

?
But, that aside, can you explain molten steel 5 weeks after 9/11?

Fire.
?
Well, the 9/11 commission report didn't even mention it. Not important?

No, actually it's really not.
?
And don't say that kerosene melts steel. And even if the planes did weaken the beams to cause the pancake effect, how did the laws of physics not apply that day so that no resistance was encountered on the building's way down? How was it near free-fall speed?

Except for that it wasn't...? here is some more reading for you. Just go through this entire site as well.
http://www.debunking911.com/freefall.htm


?

Calm down for a second, both (or more) of you and actually think about what happened. The Project for a New American Century even said that real and effective change (these are neo-cons like Wolfowitz and Cheney) would not occur unless a cataclysmic event were to happen "like a new pearl harbor".

Bush et al needed the political clout that 9/11 afforded them. We could've invaded Iraq/Afghanistan without them but it wouldn't have been at that scale. It would've been like S. America, CIA covert style to try to depose their leaders, not rush in and build a base right away.

Absolutely correct.?


Read any of David Ray Griffin's books or take a small glance at Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth. These are, again, architects and engineers who have posted blueprints, explanations for molten steel, etc. that refutes the NIST and Popular Mechanics explanations.

http://www.ae911truth.org/

These people are insane.
?

If nothing else, this was a massive intelligence failure yet no one was fired at all.

Can't argue there.
?
Ever heard of the Gulf of Tonkin incident? McNamara himself admitted that was fake yet that was our reason for Vietnam.

Sure have, know all about it.
?
USS Maine and the Spanish-American war?

Know about this one also. Doesn't change the fact that's planes crashed into the world trade center causing it to collapse.
?
There is historical precedent and that at least warrants a few minutes of your attention. I'm an atheist, which should tell you I have an open mind. Too open? Look into it and refute me, then. Please. Otherwise know that I'm not closed-minded and have done some research.

I sense your athiesm is due to just being a paranoid contrarian rather than actually rational thought.? If the majority of society was atheist I have a feeling you would be telling me about the conspiracy to cover up the truth about the existence of god. Feel free to prove me wrong here though.


?

At least look into it before huffing up like the religious zealots we agree to disagree with.?

Oh I have looked into this and had this debate many many times.



*Here's your quotation again for those who missed it:


"I want to note that I'm not complaining about any of this, I like it

this way. I don't mind 3000?people exploding every once in a while,

that's just the price of freedom."


Bitchin' quotation, that really needs to be put on a plaque somewhere.? Seriously.


What freedom? How much is college, health care (if you can get it), housing, medicine? Do we even have a true democracy ("here, pick one of two candidates we've given you"). We've it better than some countries, but do we get maternity leave, vacation, time with family? We have the freedom to consume what we want, or almost. That's not freedom, though I suppose it's freedom by comparison. You're right.

I didn't say the country is perfect.? You suppose correctly in your second to last sentence here and that very last one is absolutely dead on.

In closing go to the sites I linked look at all the arguments there that have been debunked. Also, use you head think about what your are actually proposing happened.? Think about the big picture.? Think about the number of people who would need to be involved in same of the vast conspiracies needed for some of your theories think about the challenges of actually getting away with that. Then think about the general incompetence of the federal government. Think if it's even necessary or makes sense to do it that way. Think about whether you are going against what the man says just because it's what the man says or if that's really the most rational conclusion.

-Doug
?





On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 9:05 PM, Hos <[address removed]> wrote:
"Truther" is about the biggest irony I've ever heard.


On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 8:21 PM, Doug <[address removed]> wrote:
Also, as long as I'm ranting we are NOT "the most heavily protected nation in the world".? Unless you are talking about?our military which we do spend a ridiculous amount of money on. If you are talking about protected against terrorism though you are kidding yourself.??Hundreds of thousands of people literally walk across the mexican border every year along with tons of narcotics and god knows what else.? I literally accidentally crossed into canada from montana one time without even noticing it. Just driving in my car not sneaking through a tunnel or something.? We also live in a still?relatively free country where you can easily purchase firearms and make you own explosives using google and home depot.
?
I want to note that I'm not complaining about any of this, I like it this way. I don't mind 3000?people exploding every once in a while, that's just the price of freedom. Fun fact: more people die in accidental drownings every single year than died on 9/11.? Ten times as many die in car accidents yearly.??So for all those trying to?throw our rights down the tiolet over terrorism?build a bunker and crawl inside.??You can have a?nice safe and boring life within,?let the rest of us have our freedom.
?
-Doug
On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:52 PM, Doug <[address removed]> wrote:
Oh shit... we got a 9/11?truther.
?
First of all you can get plastic box cutters. You can get ceramic knifes (and plastic ones to).? You can make things that cut people without using materials other than metal.
?
Yes a third building collapsed after the two 110 story buildings?right across a 2 lane street which shared the same foundation and were connected to it on several underground levels and?by a pedestrian?bridge?above the street?collapsed from being hit by fucking planes.? That's a lot more believeable than any other wacky theory to explain it's collapse. Also, there is no motive to collapse a third building, two wouldn't have been enough? No one even gives a fuck about WTC 7. We could have invaded afghanistan iraq whoever the hell we wanted even if wtc7 was left standing.
?
Everything else you were talking about might have sounded like a somewhat reasoned stance except for that crazy ass shit. Which just reveals you for the fool that you are.
?
Also, I'll tell you why "extremists" oppose the US and carried out that attack.? One our troops and contractors which were stationed in kuwait and saudi(the "holy" land).??Two, Israel, Israel, Israel, THE?THEOCRATIC APARTIED STATE OF ISRAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
?
Is the terrorist threat blown out of proportion to keep the defense industry going and justify wars which were really about grabbing resources? YES.? However,19 crazy muslim arab mother fuckers did get on planes and fly into those buildings. That is a fact. Period!!
?
-Doug
On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Stu C. <[address removed]> wrote:
Don't spread this idiocy. Granted, religion is silly and merely a comfort for those unable to see or believe greater truths but Islam is merely the "threat du jour". Who's giving them the permission to build a mosque there? Are muslims in control of NY government? Grow up. And the U.S. is a solid ally with Saudi Arabia. The 9/11 terrorists (7 of whom are still alive) were all from Saudi Arabia, and yet we're entrenched in Iraq and Afghanistan. See beyond the media garbage.

Fight religion, please, but let's pick our battles and not spread hate and intolerance when it isn't needed. Let them build a mosque, for crying out loud. Have any of you met a muslim?

Disagree? Look up "blowback" for a reason why muslim extremists (outside of the fake "al-qaeda" CIA creation) would want to hurt Americans. Key terms in your search should include: Predator drone bombings, Iraqi/Afghan civilian casualties, Israeli military suppliers, the Carlisle group, U.S. connections to the Bin Laden group, for starters. Osama bin Laden and his family would not be where they are (billionaires) were it not for big business, primarily U.S. business and to think he'd defect after the U.S. "helped" free Afghanistan from the Soviets is silly. The man was visited by CIA in Dubai in June of 2001 during a hospital visit.

Keep fighting religious nuts like the Texas School Board but hold off on attacking the current "other" until you realize (a) why extremists would oppose the U.S. in the first place and (b) the U.S. is the most heavily protected nation in the world and (1) boxcutters are definitely made of metal (metal detectors) (2) a third building in the WTC complex collapsed on 9/11 without sustaining major fire damage and certainly without being hit by a plane, just two reasons why we're being lied to. Why didn't we invade Saudi Arabia after 9/11? That's where the terrorists were from! Saudi Arabia was already an ally and we already have our hands on their oil. The U.S. wanted Iraqi oil, Afghan lithium and a way to surround Iran.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world/asia/14minerals.html

Please research this a little bit before launching into any tirades.

I would have done the same before I stumbled upon this other information.





On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Norm <[address removed]> wrote:




-----Original Message-----
From: Candice <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]






Sent: Sun, Jul 18,[masked]:20 pm
Subject: [EastsideAtheists] British commedian comments on idea of mosque at Ground Zero

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html

Plain speaking -- from across the pond.

Candice


--
Candice? Bradley, Ph.D
[address removed]

??`?.??.???`?.?><((((?>
`?.??..???`?.??.???`?.?><((((?>
??`?.??.???`?.?><((((?>?




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