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RE: [atheists-501] Re: [atheists-501]

From: Julian
Sent on: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 2:12 PM
A4. You have got to be joking me. Bonsai was hammering the war far harder than Bush this year. Bush was totally on the run and even the Republicans were distancing themselves from him and Howard comes out with this garbage on the 7:30 report... There's far worse quotes, I just can't be assed finding them right now.

I say this again, if America is defeated in Iraq, it will be a colossal blow to Western prestige and it will give an enormous boost to terrorism and to terrorists not only in the Middle East but in our part of the world and that will not be in Australia's national interest. Where will we be in handling a difficulty with a country like North Korea if you have an enfeebled, humiliated United States? The implications for the whole Western world of an American defeat and humiliation in Iraq are enormous. 


A6. Oh come off it. Terrorism is largely asymmetric guerilla warfare, although of late the targets have become slightly less militaristic. However, the fact remains, the more you oppress any people, the more motivated they will become, the less they have to lose and the more extremist their actions will be. The unholy mess in Iraq is a brilliant example of Western (especially Republican) idealism flying in the face of reality. Bremer sacking the Iraqi army and entire police force for instance.

You win by educating people and increasing their quality of life and making people realise what they have in common and fostering trade and cultural exchange. Trying to annihilate them just makes it a thousand times worse. Firstly suddenly you appear to be what their propaganda dictates, and secondly you push them into a situation where this seems like the only solution.

Your "us" and "them" stance is merely highlighting the depth of the problem.


---- Stephen Pearce <[address removed]> wrote: 
> Graham
> 
> Does this response suffice?
> 
> G: I'll try and answer your question mate: I think it's because I'm just so
> used to using well rehearsed leftist diatribe
> 
> SP: That statement was made about someone else but if its true for you so be
> it. Cap fits???
> 
> G: Besides agreeing to disagree basically means I let you have your
> opinion....I shut up and don't oppose it in any way doesn't it?
> 
> SP: No!
> 
> G: And to my way of thinking that is just your attempt to stop opposing
> points of view?
> 
> SP: No! Simply and exchange of views underpinned by a mutual respect and
> without personal attacks.
> 
> G: Anyhow I think I answered your question to the best of my ability....and
> only being a little condescending too but I'm sure you can handle that.
> 
> SP: No you didn't it was specifically "Why can't you just agree to disagree
> without being condescending?" 
> 
> G: Ok so you still have my questions below? You can have a go at answering
> them now please
> 
> SP: Even though you really didn't keep up your end I will answer your
> questions in the spirit of building bridges.
> 
> Q1: Exactly what you are championing. So what's your agenda?
> 
> A1: Non-theism having a place in society on par with religions in there
> various forms, atheism being demystified and just as much apart of religious
> education as gay lifestyles are in sexual education, complete separation of
> Church and state with the abolition of political parties with a religious
> base, a bill of rights, Atheists forming an effective lobby to counter
> fundamentalist Christian interference in matters of state free of left or
> right leanings, rational secular decision making on things like gay
> marriage, stem cell research. I could go on and on but I think you get the
> picture. 
> 
> Q2: What's your problem? 
> 
> A2: Don't have one!
> 
> Q3: Do you think we are winning the War On Terrorism?
> 
> A3: Yes and no - I think it is more a war on fundamentalist Islam.
> Afghanistan, Yes! Iraq, No! But to be accurate Iraq was not about terrorism.
> 
> Q4: Was Howard's decision to go to Iraq one of homeland security or was it a
> political decision.
> 
> A4: Both, it was about honouring our ANZUS commitments and Howard taking as
> little political risk as possible in the process by limiting numbers and
> locations. I do not really believe Howard given the choice would have gone
> there! It was always a political risk and it (the War) has not been
> effectively prosecuted by the US. I am sure Howard would have been quite
> happy if it had never happened!
> 
> Q5: Does YOUR agenda affect the way you answer those questions?
> 
> A5: No
> 
> Q6: And for the biggy......how do we win the war on terrorism? 
> 
> A6: Be the last man standing and never give in. If we lived in a secular
> world it would not be an issue. I think there lays a clue.
> 
> Q7: Can you answer those questions rather than flame me? Or do you sidestep
> just like a slippery right wing politician? Don't be afraid to use that
> alternate point of view of yours. Don't worry about who reads it
> 
> A7: If you won't flame others, no side step here, although the way you
> sidestepped mine shows the left can be slippery too! I'm not concerned who
> reads it!
> 
>  
> 
> First of all I am not right wing; I have some left, right and centrist views
> most of which I have been formed by either experiences or observations and
> what I see as the best balance in any situation, with an emphasis on the
> rights and responsibilities of the individual so your assumptions are wrong.
> I am actually 40 years old, married with two children and have no political
> affiliation what so ever. In fact last election I did not vote at all as
> neither side disserved it!
> 
> G: Your attack on me was pretty infantile really, only really designed to
> get a bite (attention seeking?) and to go on with it is only a lesson in
> futility.
> 
> SP: Well why did you attack Frank? Maybe you were being just as infantile,
> seeking attention and giving us a lesson in futility.
> 
> Regards
> 
>  
> 
> Steve Pearce
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of
> Graham
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 July[masked]:24 AM
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Re: [atheists-501]
> 
>  
> 
> G'day Stephen,
> 
>                       I'll try and answer your question mate: I think its
> because I'm just so used to using well rehearsed leftist diatribe? Besides
> agreeing to disagree basically means I let you have your opinion....I shut
> up and don't oppose it in any way doesnt it? And to my way of thinking that
> is just your attempt to stop opposing points of view? Anyhow I think I
> answered your question to the best of my ability....and only being a little
> condescending too but I'm sure you can handle that.
> 
> Ok so you still have my questions below? You can have a go at answering them
> now please. There are several there but I think the key ones are: "How do we
> win the war on terrorism" and "Does your agenda affect the way you answer
> those questions? At least those two are important ones for me to find
> answers to. The answer to the first question I think we would all like the
> answer to. The second question will tell me a lot about your capacity for
> honesty.
> 
> Kind regards, Graham Manning.
> 
>  
> 
> P.S. everything is political mate. That's just an unfortunate fact of life.
> I realise you are a right wing atheist. That puts you in a difficult
> position as the right wing partys are in the majority christian
> conservatives by nature and policy. A frightening parralel is that Islamic
> fundamentalists are also right wing conservative (bit more extreme though)
> and your political stance is going to continue to put you at loggerheads
> with the majority of atheist political opinion. Did you read the article in
> the Brisbane Sunday Mail? :
> http://www.news.c...­
> 
> I thought you might find it interesting (and others also) it would be better
> go read this rather than answer my questions anyhow. I realise you are
> restricted in how you answer them by virtue of you narrow political
> viewpoints you hold. You seem intelligent to me though. I'm thinking you may
> be young however? I don't really know but I'll no doubt find out in due
> time. Your attack on me was pretty infantile really, only really designed to
> get a bite (attention seeking?) and to go on with it is only a lesson in
> futility.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Pearce <[address removed]> wrote:
> 
> Graham
> 
> I'm quite happy to answer all those questions if you will answer the
> question I posed first, "Why can't you just agree to disagree without being
> condescending?"
> 
> Steve Pearce
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of
> Graham
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 July[masked]:38 AM
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Re: [atheists-501]
> 
>  
> 
> G'day Steve,
> 
>                   All fair questions from an alternate point of view.
> Exactly what you are championing. So what's your agenda? What's your
> problem? Do you think we are winning the War On Terrorism? Was Howards
> decision to go to Iraq one of homeland security or was it a political
> decision. Does YOUR agenda affect the way you answer those questions?
> 
> And for the biggy......how do we win the war on terrorism? Can you answer
> those questions rather than flame me? Or do you sidestep just like a
> slippery right wing politician? Don't be afraid to use that alternate point
> of view of yours. Don't worry about who reads it. This is just atheists-501.
> There are SFA people here to read it. LMAO :-)
> 
> Graham
> 
>  
> 
> Go to Yahoo Group Atheists_Australia folks:
> 
> http://groups.yah...­
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> Stephen Pearce <[address removed]> wrote:
> 
> Graham
> 
> Why do you have to get personal by adding "What's your real agenda? Have you
> read Machiavelli? So many questions......so little time." And get personal
> just because someone expresses an alternate point of view. Why can't you
> just agree to disagree without being condescending? After all expressing an
> alternate point of view is allowed here.
> 
> Steve Pearce
> 
>  
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of
> Graham
> Sent: Tuesday, 17 July[masked]:55 AM
> To: [address removed]
> Subject: [atheists-501] Re: [atheists-501]
> 
>  
> 
> G'day Frank,
> 
>                   Are we winning the War on Terrorism? Or are we just
> perpetuating terrorism? How do you suggest we actually "win" this war on
> terrorism?
> 
> Was Howards decision to go to Iraq a homeland security decision or was it a
> political decision? Do you think that the USA economy is dependant on their
> involvement with military conflict? Do you think the war in Iraq has
> anything to do with Oil? Did the USA find any Weapons of Mass Destruction?
> Are there parralels between the war in Iraq and the war in Vietnam? Will
> Iran be next on the USA hit list? When faced with the possibility of losing
> their seat, will a politician suddenly think their leaders policys might
> need changing? When enough people get pissed off enough with a governments
> actions can they make a difference? What's your real agenda? Have you read
> Machiavelli? So many questions......so little time.
> 
> Graham.
> 
> 
> 
> freetobe <[address removed]> wrote:
> 
> 
>  Hi Julian.
> 
>  
> 
> With respect i totally disagree with your statement and as far as i'm
> concerned security must be paramount in this country even at the cost of
> some civil rights as we are fighting terrorism on a global scale with
> innocent people being killed in their thousands.  Australia must take steps
> to protect itstelf anyway possible as being a multicultural  society and
> having people from all over the world coming into our land makes normal
> security impossible. 
> 
> Terrorism is taking away our civil rights and in times of war this will
> happen as we are at WAR !
> 
>  
> 
> Regards
> 
> Frank. 
> 
> 
> 
>  
> 
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