RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in Australia

From: Stephen P.
Sent on: Thursday, July 19, 2007 9:22 AM

Dear Julian

I make a comment about “your problem is clinically obvious” you make it an issue about your sexuality. Come in spinner! I was thinking more along the lines of Manic Narcissism and now everyone capable of detecting a Freudian slip knows what your major issues really are. LMAO J

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Julian
Sent:
Wednesday, 18 July 2007 5:29 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

 

Being that I've come in the top percentile of every standardised test I've ever performed, and you're citing a nebulous OPINION poll of people that listen to Alan Jones and think Today Tonight is a an actual current affairs program, to back up your profound lack of any argument at all, then yes, democracy can be very dangerous indeed in the wrong hands. When popular media replaces facts and balanced reporting with polemics and propaganda, we may as well live in a theocracy - the promotion of ignorance and fear to retain power is a frightening thing to behold. Should this democracy vote on whether or not there's a God? Will that make God suddenly exist? Reality cares not a jot for opinion!

 

Cite some actual facts or stop bitching that your emotions are being ignored in the pursuit of truth, and alleging that all the people reasoning with you and citing facts are incapable of understanding the first thing about anything.

 

We've already pointed out you had an extraordinarily misplaced presumption of guilt in your first post, but perhaps you'd care to share if your overriding emotion here is hate or fear, both are fed from ignorance, but hate tends to be a poorly indoctrinated and learned response to fear. How far gone are you Stephen into your simplistic little world of "us" and "them"?

 

 

 -----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]]On Behalf Of Stephen Pearce
Sent:
Wednesday, 18 July 2007 11:07 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

Dear Group

Some respondents to this string have suggested that a public consensus of 70% is a dangerous thing! Is that because the majority don’t agree with their world view or is it just that you know better than 70% of Australians?

I agree in your case it’s very dangerous it could lead to DEMOCRACY!

Regards

Steve Pearce

 

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Kathryn
Sent:
Tuesday, 17 July 2007 10:33 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

 

Dear Fellow Arguing Atheists,

Love your work but can you please keep it contained to the meetup site and the meetings. 
I’ve had about 40 emails in my inbox today and as much as I love a feisty debate I would rather choose to attend it than have it show up every 5 seconds.

Also, I am a big fan of arguing, swearing, debating etc etc etc but we’ve sometimes got a bad enough name just because we are not attached to a church or movement of some sort so would be great if you could  keep the fisty-cuffs between yourselves if they’re going on.  If they’re in person, intelligent, well thought out and respectful I will be in those type of fisty-cuffs in 2 seconds flat.

As we don’t listen to normal tradition on these things we expect an element of debate.

There’s a time, a place and a way.

Again, keep it up but please keep it out of my inbox unless I want to read it with all the other stuff I go through in a day.

Kathryn J

P.S. Looking forward to meeting you at the next meeting.   Being in front of the people you are arguing (or agreeing with) brings a better element to the discussion.


From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Julian
Sent:
Tuesday, 17 July 2007 10:05 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

See here's the problem Stephen, if you're going to put forward an argument that was and I honestly mean this, devoid of any intellect at all, and then accuse someone with a differing point of view of mining websites of possible dubious quality and essentially having no valid viewpoint or ideas of their own, you get a big fat fuck you coming your way OK, because that is nothing short of astoundingly moronic. And no matter what you "think", it's fully deserved.

I can understand that your position is near and dear to you on an emotional basis, and that you can get shriller and shriller, but simply avoiding any valid points raised and settling on absurdly baseless ad hominems is utterly foolish. I called that original sentiment paff because it was, furthermore if you knew how to read properly you would've noticed that I said your position was simliar to the British paff - you inferred the rest.

I explained to you why it was wrong, I even put you in his shoes. You decided that this was a personal attack somehow and claimed it was a personal attack on you while you were in fact personally attacking me the entire time. You claimed the relevant points were irrelevant. Then you claimed I must be too stupid or inexperienced to understand your point of view, when in fact all you'd stated to date was that he didn't have the same rights as us. We're not talking about legal rights you idiot, we're talking about the morals of the situation and the fact the Howard government would be cashing in on years of fearmongering. Then you claimed I must know 'bugger all' when in fact it was you arguing from complete total and utter ignorance the entire time. You claimed I must've ripped my entire argument off the net. In return you had done nothing but cry and spray abuse and ignore every single point raised.

Every claim I made was not only backable, but right, especially the reasons I called you an idiot. You said I must be arrested because I knew policemen, do you know what a non-sequitur is?

Seriously Stephen, fuck you, you utter moron!

And your second paragraph below is priceless! Just priceless! 70% of people agree with you. Yuh duh! It doesn't mean they're right you idiot. If we went with popularism, we'd still be thinking the Earth was flat, God makes it rain and pushes the sun across the sky, disease is caused by sin, or maybe we would be following 30 trillion flies and eating shit! If ignorant mobs were right we wouldn't need a judicial system, we'd just have a good old fashioned lynching every time the crops failed. Popularism is the weak point of any democracy, this is why education and critical thinking are such vital commodities. Knowledge is power. Put the cherry on the cake was you claim the mark of a true society is where it's safe to hold an unpopular opinion. Just remember you were the one that arced up, but after just gloating that apparently you held the popular opinion you try and play the minority card here. Come off it mate, get real.

Sorry buddy, but you reap what you sow.

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:atheists-501@m
   eetup.com]On Behalf Of Stephen Pearce
Sent:
Tuesday, 17 July 2007 9:13 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

Vonnie

May I say I respect your right to disagree! In fact I welcome an apposing point of view, but I also expect in return to be able to express mine without personal comments like being told to “F myself’, being vilified or be branded a Right winger. I am in the main politically centrist, currently unregistered as a voter and plan like last election not to vote as nether party has gained my interest.

Just out of interest the online polls are running about 70% in favour of my position. I don’t expect that those poll results will change your mind but likewise I am not going to yield to this group’s alleged consensus, according to you, either as I don’t need the Groups approval. Who was it that said “a truly mature society is one in which it is safe to hold an unpopular opinion”. I though my original comment fairly benign, I could have said Martins comment was very ignorant in view of how the law actually works and his view on the separation of powers just plain wrong and paranoid but I was not trying to be incendiary. After all cannot the minister’s decision be overruled by a court of appeal!

I have seen many group studies show in order to avoid or in the face of peer disapproval people will change there original position. My suggestion to you is this is the reason why I received 3 emails in my in-tray off list (including the person who told me about this group) and one during the string supporting my point of view. I hardly think you can speak for the whole group nor should you. Further you do not have the right to accuse them of than “skulking off or tittering behind closed doors”, not that they give a shit what you think anyway, but there again you have the right to believe what you prefer to be true.

If as a group you are not going to tolerate an alternate or centrist point of view call yourselves the Left Wing Atheists of Brisbane so you are not being deceptive. Tell everyone you are intolerant and narrow minded before they join and don’t give me this crap about most atheists being left leaning because that has been proven statistically to be bullshit! At the end of the day Vonnie your attitude is extremely hypocritical, after all is it not freedom of speech a human right defended and exercised loudly by the left.

Stephen Pearce

-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Vonnie
Sent:
Tuesday, 17 July 2007 6:57 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: RE: [atheists-501] Worrying times for democracy in
Australia

For what it's worth, I agree with Martin, Graham and Julian and very much disagree with Stephen's opinions on this matter.  

Apart from being a gross violation of human rights, it's yet another of the Howard government's famous last-ditch-fear-mongering-vote-grabbing tactics which, hopefully, the plebs won't fall for... again...  

And as for Stephen's claims "Thank you those members who contacted me off list embarrassed by Julian's postings" - I don't believe those members exist and, if they did, surely they would post to the list, rather than skulking off, tittering behind closed doors?  Not the kind people for whom I'd have any respect.  If they existed...

Sure, Julian's postings were heated.  But, compared to other groups, actually pretty tame.

Stephen, you must understand that most atheists do not subscribe to right-wing "ideals".  You are entitled to your opinion, but do not act surprised when that opinion is very strongly opposed by the majority of members here. 

There is no proof whatsoever that Haneef is a terrorist, has ever been a terrorist, has ever plotted with terrorists or ever wants to be a terrorist.  

Ignorance abounds.

Next, it'll be "persecute the godless because they have no morals or ethics".  Sheesh. 

Vonnie

 


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