EXTERNAL EVENT - LAAG TALK: Ban the burqua and other thoughts by Taj Hargey

This is an external events and views held by the organisers may not necessarily align with CLHG

**It is important that you register directly on the LAAG Meetup site here**

A practising Islamic Imam or an ex-Muslim atheist, who do you think would be in favour of a ban on the burqua? Not the one you think ... 

But then Dr. Taj Hargey is no ordinary Imam. An outspoken man, he is often slated by the Muslim community, as he favours not only banning the burqua but also asserts that "British Muslims must, as a prerequisite, cast off all variants of imported religious dogma that relentlessly advocates gender apartheid, women’s subordination, interfaith intolerance, intransigent militancy and other human rights violation".

ABOUT THE SPEAKER

In the protest against the proposed gender segregation in British Universites (LINK and details to our protest here, with other secular groups), Hargey gave a statement in support of our position! 

He says 

"The most egregious non-Qur’anic symbols of these twisted doctrines include face-masks, headscarves, beards, pyjama-like robes, etc.

This malignant message is funded by Saudi petrodollars and is drip-fed to unquestioning worshippers in mosques, and then upon impressionable young minds in the madrasahs, Muslim supplementary schools.

This warped Wahhabi/Salafi and Deobandi/Tablighi indoctrination is not derived from the Holy Qur’an. It stems from a trio of manufactured ecclesiastical sources: the reputed hadith sayings of the Prophet Muhammad compiled 300 years after his death; the archaic shari’ah — not God’s law, but a concoction of medieval clerical opinion; and priestly fatwahs — dodgy religious rulings from a wretched clergy.

With no effective counter-balancing narrative that Muslims should be integrated stakeholders in British society, this intemperate brainwashing furnishes the gateway theology for some deluded Muslims to become radicalised and/or disaffected, often turning to terrorism, paedophilia and other criminality. While the ‘popular’ theology that is peddled by Islamic institutions is directly responsible for religious belligerency, there are other unpalatable reasons behind the Woolwich barbarity. There is a definite correlation between Blair’s illegal invasion of Iraq and the advent of Muslim terrorism in the UK.

Before New Labour slavishly followed American foreign policy to embark upon non-UN sanctioned intervention in the Middle East, there was no Muslim violent extremism in Britain. This in no way excuses the despicable converts to Islamic fundamentalism (who, by the way, forlornly awaited religious martyrdom — the hadith states martyrs have the heavenly reward of 72 virgins).

But Labour leaders must be held accountable for dragging this country into needless US-inspired foreign adventures. They too have blood on their hands for giving Muslim radicals a pernicious ‘justification’ that unsurprisingly manifested itself on London’s streets.

It is high time that Britain honestly addresses the roots of Islamic terrorism instead of focusing just on its detestable results"

Dr Taj Hargey is director of the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford and Imam of the Oxford Islamic Congregation



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  • A former member
    A former member

    I started the Glastonbury Voluntary Euthanasia Group about three years ago and am signed up myself to Dignitas, (in case my pain every gets uncontrollable again - right now it is very OK through evidence based medicine). I'd like to thank Steve Chapman and Mary Grove, (I think I have the right Mary there), for their enlightening conversations when I met them at the Wallace weekend. You may not know it but you both restored my trust, (not faith), in human nature.

    So thanks,

    Fiona

    July 20

  • A former member
    A former member

    Since I am planning to come to the CLHG picnic I thought it might be better if people could get to know the real me, rather that the extreme me that has been shown on here......although I could still wear a burka if.....:-) But I promise I won't at the picnic so you will be able to recognise the non-sinister me :-)

    I have decided to start a blog to explain where I stand as a Deist so if anyone is interested here is the link:-

    http://aftermathinavalon.blogspot.co.uk

    It will be ongoing and form the basis of a book.

    I support all the campaigns of the BHA especially the "Right to Die" but I am even more extreme than the present Bill going through Parliament. I bet that's a shock to you all :-) !!!

    July 20

  • A former member
    A former member

    I thought in view of the extreme stances that have happened here that some people might think that I am only capable of taking ferocious stances but that is not so. I only do that when I feel it is necessary. My stance in life is generally very much different and I am totally committed to non-violence, apart from self-defence, and as someone who vomits with the pain that has been inflicted upon me, I would never want another human being to go through what I have been through. I am totally committed, without surrender of principles, to peace.

    July 20

  • A former member
    A former member

    All that "intellectual" talk aside which has its place has anyone managed to contact Lisa? I am seriously worried that she might turn up to the "burka" meeting tonight and be "manhandled".

    She is obviously very upset and I hope she doesn't mind me intervening on her behalf. But if she does turn up at that meeting please bear in mind that she is very upset but also very sincere and please treat her kindly.

    She obviously has great empathy for me and other women and I hope you bear that in mind if anything untoward does happen.

    Lisa please contact me. Everything can be worked out.

    Your loving friend,

    Fiona

    July 9

    • A former member
      A former member

      Hi yes, I am planning to go and will be there on my mobility scooter - no missing that! It will be after I have confronted certain people in Speakers Corner about their "religion of peace".... cough! So I hope to meet you there or if not at another time. Hope you

      July 20

    • A former member
      A former member

      OK. I just hate it when I try to do another paragraph that it gets published as a section. If you know what I mean, I dare not do another paragraph. Oh what is that? Yes, it's the sound of hairs splitting ;-) Yours friend, Fionaxx

      July 20

  • Serah

    Who are these people, Lisa and Fiona, they sounds very aggressive and ready for a fight , there is a way of disagreeing with someone without turning it into a fight I think LAAG is better off without them

    1 · July 9

    • A former member
      A former member

      I hold my hands up - I do tend to fight with people who abuse 7/7 survivors like some members of LAAG. I am sure 7/7 survivors and their supporters are better off without LAAG. Anyway it's a moot point with regard to me since being in a wheel chair I couldn't even get to the meetings now. BTW I left LAAG voluntarily - I was not thrown out.

      July 11

    • A former member
      A former member

      I think there is no point in banging on this drum if I can't actually get to the meetings!

      July 11

  • Christopher C.

    An interesting evening. Don't entirely see eye to eye with the speaker but he was a breath of fresh air from the muslim community. I walked to the tube station with him after the meeting and he has enhanced my understanding of some of the issues. Didn't like the way he was heckled during the meeting.

    July 10

    • Georgi L.

      I agree, the speaker talked about "fairytales believed by other muslims" - isn't it interesting how cognitive dissonance stops him from seeing that he believes in fairytales too! Though leaving religious faith aside, I found him to be a likeable person, with very progressive views. I think most were positively in favour of a ban by the end of the evening, and I'd be surprised if anyone hadn't at least moved more towards that stance, having learned something new about the issue.

      1 · July 10

    • Georgi L.

      And yes he was heckled (by a new member who told us later he was more used to University talks where apparently heckling is the norm). Anyway, as you know Christopher, he was told in no uncertain terms that it wasn't acceptable at LAAG meetups. A good natured evening overall, with the speaker getting many spontaneous rounds of applause. Rightly so, it takes guts to put your head above the parapet as he does, and speak out against the travesties done in the name of his religion.

      2 · July 10

  • David M.

    I'll have to await Steve's report when he comes back from the meeting. I'm sure a good sense of humour helps if you're a prominent moderate muslim.

    July 9

    • A former member
      A former member

      I'm sure too!

      July 9

    • A former member
      A former member

      Thank you for being real Humanists and not censoring my reasonable views. Lisa is well and we are in ongoing contact. Thanks, Fiona

      1 · July 9

  • Josh K.

    I remember meeting Dr Taj Hargey at an interfaith event with Yasmin Alibhai Brown. What I recall about him was that he had a good sense of humour, mind you that was a while ago.

    July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    So the email that might send Lisa over the top is the top! Well done! You are really good at abusing people!

    I have taken copies of all these posts so you don't mind me saying that no-one apart from Lisa supported me - a 7/7 survivor. Well done! I will post this in my Survivors forum to show what sort of world you would bring about. The CLHG. Not a world I would want to live in. Not one word of compassion apart from Lisa - you should be ashamed but probably aren't.

    It's a pity really. Steve Chapman who I really liked said I should be open about being a 7/7 survivor and I said I didn't think so. He has now proved that to be the point even in his own organisation.

    A world controlled by CLHG. I would rather have a world controlled by the gentle Muslim women i have known who have mended my garden fence and done my gardening, Where were the Humanist then?

    1 · July 9

  • Georgi L.

    Here is the email sent to me last night: Watch yourself! Headed "WATCH YOURSELF!". "Don't you dare email me again with threats bitch. You think you are a hard woman picking fights with disabled and pregnant ladies, I am warning you now to stay clear out of my way, don't dare come anywhere near me at any meet up events I am warning you now, do not even look in my direction or else and if you continue to email my hotmail account from this meet up site or anywhere else again with threats you will be sorry. I do not care if you ban me from your little shitty meet up group as I said I did not want to join it anyway, maybe expect to see a few women in burkas tomorrow at your protest talk oh i wonder how brazen you will be then! You think you can just email me pages of abuse and then put a block on a reply yeah you are a real hard one you aren't ya! Well watch this space....."

    July 9

    • Leese

      Go Away Go Away Go Away ... do you understand or do you need an interpreter? Do not contact me again GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY getting tired of saying this now!

      July 9

    • David M.

      Thanks for your reasonable responses Georgi. Interesting and informative as always. Can we discuss issues now instead of personalities.

      1 · July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    It's OK ish. Lisa contacted me. I haven't read the full email yet but I didn't want other people to be worried.

    Thanks for all the kind emails of support!

    Fiona

    July 9

  • Christopher C.

    Speaking as a secular humanist, I’m not in favour of banning the burqua. I believe in the freedom of expression and that includes the right of people to dress in ways that make them feel comfortable. If we ban the burqua, where does it end? Do we ban Sikhs from wearing turbans? I’d be interested to hear what Taj Hargey has to say on the subject. It’s certainly sounds like it will be an interesting evening.

    1 · June 19

    • Leese

      .......... You L.A.A.G. does not like us having a different view that in not in favor of your beliefs so it is the same difference! Actually the behavour of Georgi L did not help out the Iman and other ex-Muslim lady at all, infact it has pushed me more in favour of wanting to support the right of Muslim women and all other women to wear what the hell they well want to wear!

      July 9

    • David M.

      I think most people in CLHG would agree with you Christopher. To entertain the idea of banning it implies that it represents an oppressive or backward tradition. I think it does, but how do you weigh up the pros and cons? You could take a different angle, knowing that eg Islamists wouldn't hesitate to ban all sorts of things if the tables were turned, as they do in countries where they have power. Western societies are very accommodating, so the question then might become ' where do you draw the line in terms of freedoms, customs etc, Sharia/religious courts okay?, would be an obvious one. Religions, for instance, often wield power over the weak by restricting information and therefore choices. Perhaps that's a better target than banning. Ensure that people always have access to the information to choose?

      1 · July 9

  • Kieron

    Does anyone moderate this site at all? It seems Steve Clapham likes to 'engage' on LAAG,,, but not here. Clive Aruede loves censorship on his site,,, but not here. Will any of the organizers here take their tin hats off and come out of their bunkers and say something.!!? .

    1 · July 9

    • Leese

      Censorship of exactly what Kieron? For having an opinion with other members on here that not all Muslims are the same, that it is none of anyone business what way women choose to dress, for asking why the talks is at a venue that is not wheelchair friendly, not not liking the fact that us C.L.H.G. members had to join the L.A.A.G. and answer a load of questions just to go to this talk that was advertised to us C.L.H.G. members!!! Get a grip, we are all adults and have a right to an opinion and none of us need your written permission to do so, FACT!

      July 9

    • David M.

      I'm catching up belatedly Kieron. you could be a bit more specific though (I saw a nice Kingfisher at the week-end!). Agree that not all muslims are the same Lisa but Islam has a dark side. The burkha indicates a conservative attitude to Islam. Islamists tend to make wearing it compulsory where they can. Judging whether a person wears it out of free will or compulsion is impossible. So the issue is certainly a live one in terms of discussion, though most people, myself included, are probably against a ban for obvious reasons. It certainly doesn't obtain my respect though. It's not mandatory within Islam, just certain sections of it. I hope the debate goes well. I think I'm missing it now.

      July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    I agree. I hope everyone is OK.

    But the only person I "know " is Lisa and I really hope she is OK because her last posts were really emotionally charged,

    Lisa if you are reading this I am OK I really am. I just want you to contact me and I will give you the same support that you gave me. And more if you need it.

    By the way I was just contacted by someone from a documentary that supports my right to die in case my pain ever gets worse which is one of the reasons I first contacted the CLHG because they are connected with the British Humanist Association who support Assisted Suicide.

    I am trying to bring the debate to the public forum because I do support it.

    But if it is possible to stop needless suicide I also support that.

    Please let me know how you are Lisa.

    Your loving friend,

    Fiona

    July 9

  • David M.

    I'm afraid I only became aware of all these posts today. Google sensors them quite well by dropping them in to my 'All' box rather than my 'inbox', not that I respond well to too many emails. Name-calling is something that should be left off public sites and is a substitute for reasoned argument - can we have more of that please - quite a lot of what I've read hasn't been justified. I can sympathise with why LAAG use an upstairs room because I know how difficult it is to find venues with disabled access. I don't think they have to explain themselves here. It's a valid criticism if they make use of a disabled person in their promotional videos. If they feel that it's necessary to exclude people from time to time then that's up to them. They have a committee and a democratic structure. That's very disjointed but it's tricky looking over all the posts.

    July 9

  • Christopher C.

    I’ve just come home from work and I’m reading some of these post/emails exchanges. Frankly, I’m quite shocked and alarmed at what I’m reading here. What on earth is this degenerating into?

    Fiona, I don’t know Lisa personally and I have no way of checking whether she’s okay. I hope she is. I hope Geogi is too. We need to be able to disagree with one another without being threateningly disagreeable. People need to take time out here and cool off.

    1 · July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    No, on my part it is factual. I could not print a book saying so otherwise, (well not without being sued and I can't afford that!) But I am more concerned about something else now. IS LISA OK? CAN SOMEONE CHECK PLEASE?!!

    She was in constant contact with me sending three to five emails a day and supporting me constantly. I sent her an email today but now she has gone quiet. Can someone check on her please? I am going crazy out of my head with concern. Lisa, if you are reading this could you please contact me? I really care about you. Please let me know that you are OK.

    I am almost crying, This is not some trip I am on. I am really concerned. If anyone here knows her could you please contact her?

    Thanks,

    Fiona

    July 9

  • Audrey

    It's very hard to comment on this situation when you only have pieces of the picture. Do people have legitimate reasons for their out bust or not. Either way this situation is escalating in to a non-sensical name calling mud sling match - unhealthy by anyone's standards.

    1 · July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    I didn't really want to hash all this up again but I feel I have to make a stand for Lisa who has been so supportive of me. She even offered me a place to say in London so I could get to the "burka" meeting.

    I think the strength of her email reflects how upset she has been by what Georgi L has said to her. I don't know what that content is because Lisa has kept it confidential - rather the opposite to how Georgi has "outed" her. So people are not seeing both sides of the story.

    I backing off now. All I have done is present facts. And I do know I will stand by those who support me and put the facts of what LAAG have done to me in my book knowing that truth is a defense to libel.

    Over and out!

    July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    As to my comments about LAAG using disabled people in their cartoon to demonstrate how much for equality they are and then not even bothering to explain why they hold their meetings in disability inaccessible premises I will leave thinking people to make up their own minds.

    Also with regard to Georgi L feeling "threatened" by Lisa's email. Really? Lisa is pregnant - she is hardly going to endanger her baby by any physical violence.

    It was Georgi L who sent me the post linking me to Islamic terrorism and that left me attempting suicide. (Yes Meetup HQ got a copy of my medical reports confirming this). So who is really the most "threatening" person here.

    July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    Hi Steve,

    Of course there are two sides to everything. Personally I do not find anything sinister about someone only showing their eyes especially as they are probably the most expressive organ on the face. And especially that burka's are only worn by women.

    I feel far more threatened by drunken young men, UKIP members and skinheads - usually all English people - and I'm English too!

    I don't think I have been particularly vitriolic. In fact I think as a 7/7 survivor crippled and in constant pain with a dead husband and child because of Islamic terrorists that I have been incredibly reasonable about an organisation, (LAAG), that sought to deride me in a post by trying to imply that I supported or am connected with in any way Islamic terrorism. And these are simple facts that Meetup HQ know in New York, my solicitor and me and the LAAG organisers know.

    July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    If you are saying I engaged in an "ad hominem" attack in saying that men should not tell women what to wear and in saying that Adrian of LAAGers is a male chauvinist then I do not believe that to be so.

    I consider the second a statement of fact.

    The fact that a woman, an ex-Muslim is trying to tell women what to wear also doesn't count. Don't you get it?!! WE ARE ALL ADULTS AND SHOULD BE ABLE TO WEAR WHAT WE LIKE AND NO-ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO TELL US WHAT TO WEAR!. I don't give a toss if the person saying it is a female ex-Muslim or not. It is totally irrelevant. She may discuss her own oppression if she wishes but she has no right to extend that to others if their experience is different. How many times in human history have people tried to "liberate" other people with gross results?

    Leave them alone. They will come to the point of "liberation" if they wish to and want to and it may not be on your terms. It will be on theirs!

    1 · July 5

    • Steve C.

      Fiona, I do think there are two sides to this argument. I personally find it sinister when anyone in public chooses to only show their eyes.

      1 · July 9

    • Steve C.

      We are a social species, and for community cohesion's sake, it's a good idea that I can see who I am talking to. I hope to have a better understanding of the issues after this evening's meeting

      1 · July 9

  • Georgi L.

    We had tried to keep the discussion on this matter, only on the LAAG site, as a courtesy to CLHG. However the person concerned has continued to post personal comments here, as well as sending me an abusive email last night, with threats of physical violence. So I am posting here the email we sent to her removing her from LAAG, as we had said we would do if she continued (this is the "threat" we made, that she is referring to)

    1 · July 9

    • Leese

      I can post it on here myself, as I will show people that there is no threat from my of physical violence, I warned you to stop sending me messages and to stay clear out of my face to not even look at me if we end up at a meeting in the future. I then blocked you on facebook and on the meet up website. So post your lies away women! The fact still stands you or anyone else makes comments to me on here I might just reply, and another thing do not tell me what to do again.

      July 9

    • Leese

      and I will start my own group and we will have our own opinions and it will be nice and better than your la la la la la la la la.... maybe if you did not block so many people from your L.A.A.G. we would be able to reply to your commets but as members of the L.C.H.G. where you have originally posted this talk there seems no other place to reply. Anyway I do not want to be seen talking to the likes of you anymore so stop contacting me Georgi L. I AM NOT INTERESTED IN WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY TO ME ANYMORE SO GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      July 9

  • Kieron

    Free speech? 12 organisers listed here and not one has the courage to make a comment..!

    1 · July 9

    • Leese

      Maybe because they like us see no wrong in asking the question that we have asked that do not conform to your way of thinking Kieron. Attacking the organisers is a sad argument really.

      July 9

  • Steve C.

    Fiona, Lisa. You are making comments on our site regarding an external event. Although CLHG do try to have meetings in accessable rooms, it is not always possible. The upstairs rooms are better value (usually free) for organisations that are not well funded.
    I am happy to meet up with you both, but please moderate your vitriol.

    2 · July 9

    • Leese

      Fiona and myself are blocked as members from the L.A.A.G. for reasons of having our own opinion and not conforming to their way of thinking. Ignore Kieron. C.L.H.G. is doing a great job allowing us members to chat to each other without judgement. Keep up the good work! Kieron is only complaining because we have an opinion that he can ot change or have control over, fact.

      July 9

    • Leese

      That he can not change ( miss type there )

      July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    And remember folks the meeting is UPSTAIRS so totally inaccessible to many disabled people! So much for LAAGers and their purported sense of justice using guess what in their cartoon characters? - yes you got it -disabled people!

    What an absolute parody of the justice they say they represent!

    1 · July 5

    • Kieron

      Well, if it is that easy you and Fiona can form your own meetup group and see how far you get.

      1 · July 9

    • Leese

      Actually Kieron, that was the first thing I done was looked into it, and I have to wait until pay day to set up a group. The fact that I have met some of the L.A.A.G. members and received emails from some saying that i should turn up to your talk in a Burka and that I am also wasting my time with online debates as apparently there was other Atheists groups before the L.A.A.G. one but there was also the same amount of fighting all the time! I am thinking, Create a nice Atheist group that is not for wanting to sign petitions telling women what to wear and also that is compulsory that every meet up venue and location is Wheelchair friendly...... Yes Kieron I believe it will work out rather well actually so "Let's see yes"!! just how far we get!

      July 9

  • A former member
    A former member

    PS My "mania" was in response that I attend Speakers Corner on my mobility scooter to denounce Islamic terrorism and no-one from LAAGers would join me in that. So harsh yes but I do think they are cowards. But they did not have to demonstrate the depths to which they would sink to try to "destroy" someone who said that. But all in all I have to thank them. They have added yet another chapter to my book for which I now have a publisher and an advance.

    Thanks LAAGers!

    1 · July 5

    • Kieron

      Free speech is OK Lisa,, lies are not.

      1 · July 9

    • Leese

      Lies about what Kieron? I was sent a total of five very long messages over the weekend by Georgi L saying that I had no courtsey and that I should of sent her an apology, threatening me that I better not make any more comments anywhere or else! She is a coward, she picks fights with a lady in a wheelchair and the a pregnant lady then bans Fiona and myself for stating the obvious that it is actully in fact no ones business how women choose to dress, who the hell is she or anyone to ENFORCE opinions on Muslim women and how they dress. Fiona showed what a decent amazing human being she is by being right that not all Muslims are the same and Georgi just could not handle the fact that Fiona has an Amazing Amount of Empathy in her heart. Yes in my opinion your L.A.A.G is harsh and does not like that simply not everyone agrees with your way of thinking. You simply block anyone who does not Conform to your way of thinking Fact!

      July 9

  • Leese

    Hi, I get sent requests all the time on Facebook asking me to sign a petition to Ban The Burka, and I do not sign it simply for these reasons, if a woman/lady or girl chooses to wear a Burka to represent her belief in a certain faith/religion good for her, It is none of my business how other choose to dress once it is not forced upon me or my Daughters to be put in one. I think every female out there should dress modestly so to be honest wearing a Burka does not get me angry like a woman walking around showing most of her private parts on display, It annoys me to see woman forced into a Hijab or Burka but it also annoys me even more when women parade around dressed like prostitutes showing too much flesh on display. I am interested in going to this talk to here a more in depth reason as to why I should want to Ban the Burka. I am against Sharia Law period.
    p.s.
    It is also annoying having to join the Atheist meet up page with so many questions just to get a place to go to this talk!

    1 · July 4

    • Leese

      Also after replying to you on the LAAG page, I did not take much notice that I was making comments on the CLHG page, not that it really makes that much of a difference apart from Christopher & myself being apart of the CLHG page anyway... what difference does it really make? Do I now need permission to speak or make a comment on either group page? I think not!

      1 · July 5

    • Christopher C.

      Georgi L. I have now replied to you on your LAAG website. I must say, the LAAG is not user friendly, it took me ages to find out how to reply and the only way I could do it was to copy all the previous information.

      1 · July 5

  • A former member
    A former member

    After I denounced the LAAGers for believing that we were all robots with no freewill they even took down the one existing post they left up that I contributed to. (Left up with my permission). About guess what - yes you got it - free will!!!

    1 · July 5

  • A former member
    A former member

    It is nothing to do with the numbers of people going. All you need to do to control the numbers of people going to a meeting is to add them up! That is elementary Watson. You do not need to request them to fill in a form listing load of details.

    They are being very silly and pompous in my view and making asses of themselves. If people really want to go a meeting all they will do is lie on the form.

    Also I know now that Adrian who dismissed my anxiety build up as "petulance" is a male chauvanist pig and his attitude remindes me of the "skepchick lift incident" and the views of many stupid men to that....dismissing her anxiety etc.

    Adrian did meet me in another capacity and I told one man I did not wish him to talk to me now or ever again - which I didn't. I establish my boundaries very firmly and it is my right to do so. But apparently that made me "petulant" in Adrian's view.

    1 · July 5

  • A former member
    A former member

    Well I can tell you. Without being egotistical it happened after I had a falling out with them. It is to make sure that what they deem to be "trouble makers" do not go to their events.

    It appeared that someone they believed was an "Islamic" infiltrator came to some of their meetings and also when I had a fit of my "mania" and called them all cowards and said that they were not really activists they decided to link me with said infiltrator in a post in which we were both mentioned. Of course they also put in that post that the two things were not linked. So the obvious question is if that is the case then why do so?

    Then I got the Meetup HQ in New York involved and all my posts were taken down except one including the offending post linking me to Islamic terrorism, (at my request). At that point they said they were going to institute the use of a form to make sure only the "right" people came to their meetings.

    I

    1 · July 5

  • A former member
    A former member

    Gosh, I wish I could get to it - but I can't living in the sticks and all. Would it be possible to audio record it and put is on this website? I'd love to listen and I do appreciate that not everyone would want their photo's on the Internet - I certainly don't!

    July 5

  • Fiona W.

    Dr Hargey mentions Tony Blair. If you have an hour to spare, I recommend listening to Sue Townsend's play, 'Adrian Mole and the Blair-Mole Project' (Radio 4, 14.15, Friday 4 July).

    July 5

  • terence f.

    Interesting topic but I am booked in elsewhere. Have a lively discussion.

    July 5

  • Leese

    yet I believe that it is my right as a human being to choose to wear tattoo's instead of jewelry compared to the next lady who chooses not to, just like a lady who chooses to wear a burka or mini skirt, is the lady in the mini skirt more likely to offend the most? or is that too, a judgement that she must be promiscuous because she is dressed a certain way?! Or is the lady in a Burka not able to decide for herself what she wants to wear? So where is the real threat and issue?? I am so looking forward to this talk! and would love to know why people want to always enforce more rules on each other in society instead of just living in peace with each other and accepting that each are all the same with different tastes!

    July 5

  • Leese

    P.S.
    I feel too many people for the wrong reasons want to enforce their believes and views into rules and onto people simply because they feel threatened or don't like something because they do not understand something. I get discriminated against and judged all the time by strangers for having tattoo's simply because the image is wrong to them, and I dress like a lady and behave like a lady and have no criminal record yet I am treated like I have simply for having tattoo's and the stigma that comes with a female having tattoo's.....

    July 5

  • Leese

    Burka/Burcka, Hear not here!
    Was a bit passionate when I wrote that!

    July 5

  • A former member
    A former member

    By the way I totally agree with the speakers analysis of the Iraq war. It was totally, and is, totally immoral. They do have blood on their hands. (The British Government and Tony Blair that is at that time and now for continuing it). That said every individual must take responsibility for their actions.

    Those who influence people must take responsibility but those who chose to abdicate their moral responsibility must also be held to account. My husband and child were murdered by those who called themselves Muslim but it is not in me to go out and murder Muslims in revenge for that.

    I have chosen a different path - the way of peace. And we can choose - we are not robots.

    Those who choose to believe so simply want to abdicate moral responsibility. Without that what sort of world will we be living in?

    1 · June 19

  • A former member
    A former member

    Those who choose to believe so simply want to abdicate moral responsibility. Without that what sort of world will we be living in?

    I don't want my husband and child to have been murdered to no end or for my suffering which is ongoing to mean nothing.

    Without taking moral responsibility and aiming for peace where can this poor world go?

    Fiona

    1 · June 19

  • A former member
    A former member

    And by the way I am not speaking as an anything - ist here. I just don't believe the way forward is more State oppression. There is too much of that already as if we are not adults and cannot decide amongst ourselves.

    We are already living in a Police State and every time I hear someone say x and x should be banned I shudder and wonder how many more laws are going to be passed by Nanny before we are finally allowed to grow up.

    Fiona

    1 · June 19

  • A former member
    A former member

    Glad you let the public know that the meeting is upstairs and so for many not disability accessible. Seems that disabled are OK for your cartoon expressing how you see justice. It is a pity you do not practise it in where you hold your meetings and neither as far as I have seen given an explanation for doing so.

    I know on my part 7/7 bombing victim or not if they ever pass a law in this country making the wearing of the burqa unlawful I will go out of my way to wear one, take the consequences and explain why I took that action. If any one thinks that makes me aligned with fundementalist Islam then they are stupid. I do not regard that as abuse merely a statement of fact.

    Fiona

    1 · June 19

  • A former member
    A former member

    So yet again men are telling women how to dress and trying to get that control enshrined into law, (oh the irony - we will force you to be free - sounds a bit like the West's response to the Taliban - we will force you into democracy! We might bomb your cities and maim your children in doing it but by God you will be free!!!)

    How about we pass a law saying that men cannot tell women how to dress whether that be to cover themselves up, (for whatever reason they want), or expose their breasts in public, (like I did at a festival once). I know what I will not put up with is anyone telling me how I should dress - especially a man. That is sexism par excellence.

    1 · June 19

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Rafaël

We just grab a coffee and speak French. Some people have been coming every week for months... it creates a kind of warmth to the group.

Rafaël, started French Conversation Group

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