Re: [webdesign-396] Requests for classes and what's going on.

From: Gaurav Narain S.
Sent on: Monday, August 2, 2010 11:50 AM
I think simple design and code should be saleable, scaleable and educateable.

Aoirthoir, you and fellow members here kinda sit at the intersection of the three if you back design and code with a moderately challenging problem that can be solved on the web (or even off)

css summit solves problem of providing experts and newbies to interact *only* online thereby cutting costs of things like gas, hotel, conference rent etc. and keep quality of content very high. i'm not advertising the summit, but think it makes sense to cite it here.

using free tools of today it is totally possible for members in the group to attend your sessions remotely there by not having these silly expenditures

G

On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 10:21 PM, bryan <[address removed]> wrote:
A-
��
this is the great thing about open dialogue. i wasn't even thinking as broad as you were about�� << Versioning, Backups, Security, Server Settings, Command Line and Secure Shell interaction, Email setups, Mashups, Bash Scripting, Python, Stored Procedures, Ruby and other skills >>. imo having a group with individuals with each skill set represented would make for a very informative and productive exchange. the best thing for me going to any type of meeting is that you have experts that certainly inform you, but there is always a beginner that says something that no one was even aware of. weather it's a feature in the software, a trick with technique, or just a really unique perspective. everyone strengthens the group. and when groups function like that��real learning takes place. good stuff!
��
however, i might be getting ahead of myself here. i was merely suggesting that those who read this thread and would like to work as a team and create sellable products should get involved. the format for the classes you are putting together is entirely up to you, as you well know ;)
��
don't be so critical of yourself. :)��how are you short changing people that attend? the classes are free and you can only fit so much instruction in the allotted time frame. every time i get to a class i learn something intended and unintended. everytime! the fact that you are organizing things is awesome. and a fee is really not unreasonable, especially if there was an agenda with tangible take aways. i.e. "today you will learn the major tags for html5, the new changes in html5, and you get an html5��cheat sheet."
��
i agree that security (and backups) are the most important areas too. it's an axiom that once you have something of value, you had better believe that someone is gonna try��to take it.
��
finally, market value for a static website is on average $80 to $100 an hour. add programming it jumps to $120 to $200. figure in some��other add ons like graphic design, copy, social media planning, seo, marketing, additional widgets, training etc you have projects that will price out at $4k to $10k. obviously i'm not talking about projects for big corporations (but that is a possibility too), but small business and organizations. i'll give ya a call.
��
bryan��
��
��
��
In a message dated 7/30/2010 1:22:44 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [address removed] writes:
Bryan,

You bring up again even more good points. One of the things that has held the classes back is the fact that I am a coder, not a designer. To really get into the meat of web design classes, folks have to know more than html tags and css positioning. I personally have enough of a history from working in a print shop to recognize good design elements. But I've never been responsible for design myself. As well I've never forced myself to use extensively apps like Photoshop, Gimp, Inkscape, Adobe Illustrator or other tools of the design masters. So that too has hindered us. The number of professionals with graphic design experience (not just coding) that have the time to assist us with classes has been very limited.

So over the past few weeks I've finally forced myself to sit down and start to learn, not just graphic design applications, but technique. Of course I have a long way to go. But it's one more piece to the puzzle that I can offer when I am teaching folks. Really, the last missing piece.

I agree with you that learning on live, real working sites, is a great way to move forward. Whether folks can learn from paid work, or more likely contribute to free and open source applications, hands on is simply hands down, the best way to learn. And it's not enough to learn how to code HTML/CSS and Javascript, and MySQL and PHP. Folks that really want to do this, whether for their own personal sites of any weight, their own business, a client, or as an employee need to dig deep into things like Versioning, Backups, Security, Server Settings, Command Line and Secure Shell interaction, Email setups, Mashups, Bash Scripting, Python, Stored Procedures, Ruby and other skills. In short, one must be willing to study long, and hard to REALLY learn a wide range of tools.

And thus yet another reason the classes end up being a long time coming sometimes, because I really hate when I feel like I am short changing someone because yes they need to know HTML, but backups and versioning and other such things are as important, and frankly more important. Having the greatest design in the world is pointless if it gets deleted, or cracked, and you don't have your backups.

Ultimately your idea of a collaboration amongst all those learning (and those of us with more experience, but still learning as well) is really what we're trying to achieve with the meetup. Frankly, if we could get several of us together, that are already skilled, but in different areas, for a meeting, we could lay out some serious plans along the lines of what you're suggesting.

If anyone has any interest, please ring me at 440.521.7214. Maybe we can put our heads together and come up with some good ideas.

Kind Regards,
Aoirthoir

--- On Thu, 7/29/10, bryan <[address removed]> wrote:

> From: bryan <[address removed]>
> Subject: Re: [webdesign-396] Requests for classes and what's going on.
> To: [address removed]
> Date: Thursday, July 29, 2010, 9:42 PM
>
>
>��
>��
>
> i can get us accounts. i think we can, all willing
> participants, create a
> productive work flow. which in fact would be a very
> important element for any
> design/development project. even the experts can learn from
> each other on that
> one.
> ��
> in my opinion, to create��a fully functional
> dynamic site we would need
> designers (graphics, illustrations, images, typography,
> html,
> css),��architects (layout, usability, functionality),
> developers
> (javascript, jquery, databases, languages). in addition, we
> can as a team create
> other��deliverables like add on widgets,��webcopy,
> seo, and a��lot
> more.
> ��
> getting accounts is not the sticking point. producing
> visually captivating,
> relevant, usable, and functional websites is the challenge.
> i��think this is
> a great opportunity for professionals to share and for
> beginners to develop or
> sharpen their skill sets.��i'm in!
> ��
>
> In a message dated 7/29/2010 4:10:27 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,
> [address removed] writes:
> On Thu,
>���� Jul 29, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Aoirthoir An
>���� Broc
> <[address removed]> wrote:
> > All good
>���� ideas. In fact we were proposing working on an HTML5 CMS.
> There are lots of
>���� folks that >would like to learn and learn with hands
> on experience. Trying
>���� to do so and getting paid for it though is >a job. In
> order to do so we
>���� need people that want to have sites and want to pay us to
> do them. I'm not
>���� >exactly salesman of the year though so we're left
> with figuring things out
>���� on our own. :D
>
>
> I forgot to say, the paid job is good as long
>���� everybody learns all the material.
>
> Again, for getting jobs try craigs
>���� list.
>
>
>
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