Stillwater Critical Thinking Club

“Ethics for Spies: What Americans Need to Know”

Ethics for spies sounds like an obvious oxymoron, and it certainly generates lots of laughter on first thought. But when people consider the horrific experience of police-states, where spies and other elements of the security services of government turn against the people who pay their salaries, a light dawns that maybe you want your spies to have SOME degree of ethics. When considering foreign intelligence against sometimes lethal enemies, people are even more comfortable with the “all gloves off” or “anything goes” mentality. But that brought us total war in the last century, followed by agonizing efforts to create SOME laws of war like the Geneva Conventions, limits on weapons of mass destruction, prohibitions against torture under ANY circumstance, and other efforts to limit the barbarity of human competitions even under extreme circumstances. Recent history has seen several governments and many attorneys rationalize such limits away. Dr. Andregg has studied spies very closely for over 25 years, published chapters in textbooks and readers for the CIA and Defense Intelligence Agency on ethics for spies, and consults with recovering police-states on how to train and deploy security services that will not turn against their peoples or commit atrocities abroad. He will bring a few thoughts about those topics including targeting killing, psychological operations and the whole nasty toolkit called “tradecraft” for intelligence professionals for our talk on Armistice Day, 2013.

Speaker: Michael Andregg, Ph.D. University of California in Genetics. Dr Andregg teaches at University of St. Thomas and University of Minnesota. Just returned from doing a lecture series in Romania at their National Intelligence Academy.

Join or login to comment.

  • Steve L.

    Vaughn, it would be interesting to know what has happened in your past to motivate you to do such research to lead you to believe the Nazis did not target Jews for extermination. I would be interested in meeting you privately in an attempt to understand. Lee, it would be great to have you present. Vaughn, to give you a public opportunity to deny the holocaust I will not do, but you do raise my curiosity thus the invitation is being made to a private discussion.

    November 12, 2013

    • Vaughn K.

      Thanks for the note Steve. I appreciate your encouragement for us to have a logical, rational, open, and free-thinking debate on the Holocaust. I expect you will attend and I STRONGLY encourage you to invite fellow Jews, rabbis, Holocaust "scholoars" [sic], and Holocaust survivors. People should not be afraid of the truth (although, Mr Lear, I did find it somewhat odd that during your presentation on Israel you admitted you did not believe in truth--that sort of puts me at a disadvantage when debating you for you have license to say literally anything, whether you agree with what you are saying or not!). Still, I embrace the challenge of showing at least some of the holes in the conventional account of the Holocaust that truly open thinkers can drive a Mack truck through.

      November 17, 2013

    • Vaughn K.

      Steve, Lee Salisbury of the Stillwater Critical Thinking Meet-up should let you know when I will be presenting my revisionist view of the Holocaust. Please keep in touch with him and let him know of your eagerness to debate me--Vaughn Klingenberg.

      November 17, 2013

  • Vaughn K.

    So, what do I need to do to present a revisionist history of the Holocaust to people who have been relentlessly indoctrinated into believing the conventional account of the Holocaust is unimpeachable and that only an anti-Semite (I would call such-a-one a "Holocaust Truther") would dare question Jewish propaganda on the Holocaust? Lee Salisbury, let me know when I can present my views on this topic. Please note me back. Thx. V. Klingenberg

    November 17, 2013

  • Michael A.

    Nice to meet you too, John et al ;-).

    Lee said you would ask hard questions if I made provocative claims, but apparently the claim that spies killed John Kennedy was not controversial for you. No hard questions. But since you ask, I will write what I can in 1000 characters. I read 17 books to reach my conclusions and talked to people closer to events. One of my sources was an Army Ranger assigned to CIA’s Miami Station[masked], Brad Ayers, a Stillwater grad with lots of inside information. Jim Marrs' “Crossfire” is excellent. For beginners FBI agent and New Orleans DA Jim Garrison's "On the Trail of the Assassins" is good. So, John, if you really want to dispute nuts and bolts of Kennedy’s murder, or 9/11, invite me back and we can focus on one. If we did 9/11, I would need ½ hour of video capability, and the Zapruder film is critical evidence on the JFK case. So video would be helpful in either case. But I’d expect harder questions.

    Best wishes,

    Michael A.
    St. Paul, USA

    November 13, 2013

  • Lee S.

    Vaughn, if interested in CTC presentation then contact me directly[masked] ... since you did not attend last night after all your bravado comments it caused me to doubt your intentions

    November 12, 2013

  • Lee S.

    Engaging presentation on the psychopathy of spies ... allegations of spy activities regarding JFK assassination and 9/11 not supported by any evidence and should have been challenged ...aspiring critical thinkers were too easy on the speaker ... nevertheless we acquired much to contemplate as to need for oversight of CIA and NSA ... our democracy is in jeopardy

    November 12, 2013

  • John P.

    Informative topic. A knowledgeable presenter, however he made a number of provocative statements, stated that he would provide evidence to support some of his allegations, but then failed to do so. Lots of unsupported conspiracy allegations, but where's the beef?

    1 · November 12, 2013

  • Vaughn K.

    [Beginning of Part 2] We owe it to everyone involved in the Holocaust--Jew and Gentile alike--to come to an honest assessment of it and not simply repeat unvetted platitudes and cartoonish caricatures of who was involved and what supposedly happened. I encourage you to invite all your Jewish friends to attend (as I will be doing as well) so we can have an open, frank, and honest debate. Thank you for this opportunity!!! -- Vaughn Klingenberg (I await your timely reply, and thank you again.)

    November 11, 2013

  • Vaughn K.

    Hi Lee Salisbury!! John Paquette suggested I contact you to set up a time to present a critical assessment of the conventional account of the Holocaust. I am free on Mondays, so if you could set aside a date for me to do a presentation as soon as possible--that would be great!!! So much has followed in the wake of the Holocaust--the justification for the founding of the [racist, apartheid] Jewish state of Israel, the employment of the Holocaust as a means by which some slanderous Jewish leaders (the Anti-Defamation League's Abe Foxman comes to mind) to label and dismiss critics of Israel or Zionism as closet Nazis or anti-Semites, and the general strategy of guilting the Gentile population for not being more supportive of the Jewish community--that a critical and honest assessment is sorely needed, especially today! [End of Part 1]

    November 11, 2013

  • John P.

    Hi Vaughn. Point of clarification. You would need to talk with Lee Salisbury about this. He would have he schedule for the following months and what the format would look like. The schedule is not my call.

    November 11, 2013

    • Vaughn K.

      John: Thank you for the quick reply. I will email Lee Salisbury now and see when he is open to having me do a critical presentation on the veracity of the Holocaust to the Stillwater Critical Thinking Group. Once this is set up, I would encourage you (and others) to invite as many Jewish friends as possible to attend (I will do likewise). To my mind we owe it to all--Jew and Gentile alike--who experienced the Holocaust to come to an honest assessment of it and not some cartoonish caricature of it. VK PS, John, if you could put in a good word to Lee regarding this topic of discussion, I would appreciate it!

      November 11, 2013

  • John P.

    I am looking forward to tonight's presentation. It appears that Dr. Andregg will be discussing various aspects of intelligence gathering, or spying, and our slide towards the “end justifies the means" position. Do we need spys? Is there such a thing as ethical spying? Can effective policies with regard to oversight and accountability be achieved?
    Having had my say, I would suggest with respect that we hear the speaker out and not have the replay of the circus that we had at our last session. If you want to air your pet theories, save them until the end of the presentation. I, and I think most of the others attendees, are coming to hear our scheduled presenter and not you. If you have that much to say, and it's that important to you, sign up for a time slot to make your positions known.

    November 11, 2013

    • Vaughn K.

      John Paquette: excellent idea!!! Sign me up to present the topic, "The Holocaust: The Greatest Fraud of the 20th Century" at the Stillwater Critical Thinking Club. I would be extremely happy to debate Holocaust survivors, Holocaust scholars, rabbis, regular Jews, or anyone who believes the conventional account of the Holocaust is true. Put your "money where your mouth is" so to speak, and prove that the Stillwater Critical Thinking Club is truly a genuinely Free-Thinking organization, not afraid to debate any topic!!! Mondays work for me, so let me know when I can do my presentation. Thank you again for the opportunity John!!!

      November 11, 2013

  • Vaughn K.

    The motto of Israel's infamous Massad is: "By deception, wage war." Deceit is enshrined and unabashedly trumpeted by Israel's premier spy organization as their modus operandi. This should tell us something, esp with respect to False Flag operations such as the Lavon Affair, the Oklahoma City bombing, and 9/11. My own view is that all spy organizations should be disbanded. They have been responsible for overthrowing more democratically elected governments as well as being responsible for more state sponsored terrorism than the folks they are supposedly protecting us against. Al Quida--if it even exists or is merely a boogy-man created by "our" so-called "intelligence" services to keep the public in a constant state of fear so we can be cowed and ruled more effectively--gives me FAR less fear that our own over-reaching and intimidating survailence organizations. vk

    November 6, 2013

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sometimes the best Meetup Group is the one you start

Get started Learn more
Rafaël

We just grab a coffee and speak French. Some people have been coming every week for months... it creates a kind of warmth to the group.

Rafaël, started French Conversation Group

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy