Re: [atheists-27] Liberal and Conservative?

From: Duff M.
Sent on: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 3:48 PM
The sidewalk leading directly to the store's door is a direct financial benefit, just as much as having the store itself is.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

The side walks are the essence of an indirect financial benefit.

On Mar 12,[masked]:42 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
The mall builds the sidewalks because it, and the stores that do business there, know that there is a direct financial benefit to them for having those sidewalks.

If stores and individuals saw a direct financial benefit to having publicly maintained roads, I doubt we'd be having this discussion... but since that benefit is indirect (in that people having a road to their house allows them to go to any store, not just the store that is paying the tax) then the tax needs to be imposed.

I should point out, before this gets too far - I am not in favor of ALL taxes, nor do I believe that all government spending and regulation benefits all of civilization. I do think all taxes and all regulations should have a clear public benefit, or should be eliminated.  As an example, government subsidies to oil companies, or bridges to nowhere, or excessive military-industrial complexes, are inappropriate uses of our tax dollars. Likewise, regulations that create a barrier to entering the market for small companies give advantages to large companies are inappropriate.

I am not in favor of communism - but I do agree with Chad's points completely.




On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

You won't get our money by threatening us with jail and we are the ones that can provide the goods. Malls don't threaten me for walking on their sidewalks if I don't buy things in the stores..it's a free service provided by the stores for the purpose of making purchases easier. The mall owner persuaded the store owners to supply the resources needed to erect and maintain the mall and its sidewalks. If this can be done voluntarily, then I am not convinced roads must be built via slave labor.

On Mar 12,[masked]:25 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
I assume, then, that when when you're going to the grocery store, you don't drive on publicly-maintained roads? When your house catches fire, you don't call the public fire department? When you get robbed in the street, or someone breaks in to your house, you don't call 911? You don't send your kids to public schools?

You still rely on government regulations to keep you safe, whether you want to admit it or not. Regulations keep the electric company from sending you power that is unsafe, and the water company from poisoning you with unclean water or unsafe pipes. Regulations keep other people's cars maintained at an adequate level to ensure your safety, or remove them from the road.

You're a fool to think that you are doing it on your own. It's not intimidation to point out that you benefit from the infrastructure and civilization those taxes buy.

If nothing else, you benefit from roads you will never even drive on, because it allows other companies to acquire and deliver the goods they need to provide to you the goods and services you consume.

Arrogance like that is what makes libertarianism non-viable.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

I am so pro-myself which is why I won't be intimidated into paying for a road. Either convince me via persuasion or do your project without me.

On Mar 12,[masked]:10 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
Not all taxes and regulations are coercive. When taxes pay for roads and other infrastructure, and for emergency services, for education and for health care, then I do not find taxes to be inappropriate. When regulations preserve our environment, ensure fair competition and prevent coercion on individuals by corporations and other individuals, I do not find regulations to be inappropriate.

To paraphrase Oliver Wendell Holmes, "with my taxes, I buy civilization."

I sympathize with the libertarian perspective, but forgive me if I am too cynical to believe that everyone is capable of playing by the rules. Most people aren't pro-freedom: they are pro-themselves.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

That's true in some ways and grossly misapplied politically. I believe that violence is anti life and that coercive taxes and regulations are a form of violence. I won't submit to them. I encourage you to rebel against them too.

On Mar 12,[masked]:54 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
You act like those are the only two possibilities. They're not. And your continued non-extinction depends on our continued non-extinction, whether or not you want to admit it.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

I don't care about "our" extinction. I only care about "my" extinction. Libertarianism respects one of these concerns. Communism another. Care to take a guess?

On Mar 12,[masked]:47 PM, "Chad" <[address removed]> wrote:
who isn't pro-freedom?
In order for anything to improve our whole idea of capitalism needs reworked. We are at critical mass concerning those that have too much and those that have too little. Libertarians are generally in agreement with fewer regulations and restrictions on the free market. This in of itself denies the obvious failures of our whole system. Consumerism as generated by out of control capitalism is responsible for destroying our economy, environment, as the well as having much to do with the horrid policies coming out of DC. Something else needs to tried. Our extinction looms while we squabble over property rights and the free market.

Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Given that definition, I would challenge your point that most non-religious people are pro big government. I think most non-religious people are anti GOP because of the religious wing nuts who tend to reside in that party. When it comes to what most people really think, I think most people are pro-freedom and anti-coercion (ie libertarian).

On Mar 12,[masked]:34 AM, "Don Wharton" <[address removed]> wrote:

Zach asked: what did I mean by liberal and conservative? Obviously this is largely just the two increasing separated ends of a political spectrum. The liberals see value in taxation for investment in the common good. Conservatives will see some value in doing that but at a much reduced level. Liberals will see regulatory action as legitimately defining actions that will benefit the common good. Conservatives again not so much. They think the free market will best find the common good via the unrestricted invisible hand of the markets.

 

Libertarians in general don't much like this political theory for good reason. They support liberalism on social issues but tend to the conservative side on fiscal issues. A theory that properly accounts for modern libertarianism must break out these liberal and conservative views on separate social and fiscal dimensions.

 

Don





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