Re: [atheists-27] Liberal and Conservative?

From: Duff M.
Sent on: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:15 PM
"Houses burn down all the time no doubt in part because we have government fire stations that don't innovate or compete or offer anyone new or better methods in order to get their voluntary subscription".

Privatizing emergency services leads to protection rackets and thuggery. That being said, you might be right that there needs to be incentives for technology to advance... but that could be accomplished through other means than privatization.

"And government isn't civilization.  A really dishonest equivocation along the lines of claiming that God and morality are the same thing.  Government is TSA groping, drone bombing, segregated failed schools, dirty pot holed streets.  Civilization usually happens where there is the least govern"

Nobody said "government is civilization." Not all government is good - but not all government is bad, either. Likewise less government isn't always best, either. Effective government is what is needed - but I absolutely agree that the government we have today is not effective.




On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:10 PM, bruce <[address removed]> wrote:
Houses burn down all the time no doubt in part because we have government fire stations that don't innovate or compete or offer anyone new or better methods in order to get their voluntary subscription

And government isn't civilization.  A really dishonest equivocation along the lines of claiming that God and morality are the same thing.  Government is TSA groping, drone bombing, segregated failed schools, dirty pot holed streets.  Civilization usually happens where there is the least government.


On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Duff Means wrote:
The difference between us is, I see the benefit to civilization and thus to myself in keeping your house from burning down, and thus in collecting taxes to ensure that we civilization is able to prevent your house from burning down.

You, on the other hand, are just selfish. Self-concern is a good thing, to be sure - but selfishness is not.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:
I don't have an argument against my own responsibility for maintaining my own driveway.

But if I build the road connecting your driveway to the fire station, good luck getting me to allow that fire truck to drive on that road to put out the fire at your house.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Good luck getting me to build your drive way. You might want to buy a Kevlar vest first :)

On Mar 12,[masked]:57 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
What about the road leading to my house? What about the road further beyond, that connects my neighborhood to the highway?

If I maintain it at my own cost, my neighbors receive the benefit at no cost. If I don't maintain it, I lose access to emergency services, to deliveries from stores I make purchases from, etc.

If we collectivize the maintenance - then we've established a state, and taxes that must be collected "by force"

There is a limit to libertarianism. Infrastructure is one of those limits.



On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:52 PM, bruce <[address removed]> wrote:
That's why streets and sidewalks should be owned and operated by business districts, neighborhood associations, private companies, anyone but government.  Government doesn't clean them or fix them, allows potholes and sink holes and craters, muggers and rapists, rats and other vermin, marching nazis and the Westboro baptist church.  Anyone else would have a profit motive or some self interest in protecting the consumer.


On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Duff Means wrote:
The sidewalk leading directly to the store's door is a direct financial benefit, just as much as having the store itself is.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 3:44 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

The side walks are the essence of an indirect financial benefit.

On Mar 12,[masked]:42 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
The mall builds the sidewalks because it, and the stores that do business there, know that there is a direct financial benefit to them for having those sidewalks.

If stores and individuals saw a direct financial benefit to having publicly maintained roads, I doubt we'd be having this discussion... but since that benefit is indirect (in that people having a road to their house allows them to go to any store, not just the store that is paying the tax) then the tax needs to be imposed.




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