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Re: [atheists-27] Liberal and Conservative?

From: bruce
Sent on: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 4:30 PM
It's amusing.  The local gay magazine is all beside itself because Spa World (Centreville Virginia) told a transgender woman "she" could not use their (all nude, I've been there) facilities - steam rooms, saunas, hot tubs, cold tubs etc - because the (born) women patrons see her big shoulders and hands and know she was a man and don't want to be naked with her, or have their kids (Spa World is a family place, Asian owned and often mainly Asian) be in the same hot tub with this penidectomied male.

Id love to know if the gays and lesbians taking up this cause (or anyone else) think if they showed up for a massage appointment, or hired a sex worker (prostitute, erotic massage) or went to a sex club (where there were janitors or other attendants) and were expecting a certain gender, if they should be forced to accept a transgender person to provide the service.

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Zach Moore wrote:

Let's just see how offensively I can state my selfishness.

Doctors should be able to serve whoever they want - the richest or the most sick. It's the doctors prerogative.

Businesses should be able to tell gay people to go to Hell and get out of their store (good luck withstanding the social pressure but it's their prerogative.)

A man with a fire extinguisher should be able to choose which houses on fire he wants to put out. It's up to him.

Selfishness is a virtue. Selflessness is not. If you disagree, how to you plan to convince them otherwise?

On Mar 12,[masked]:15 PM, "Joseph B" <[address removed]> wrote:
not to add to to the fun ... but the problem with government is when it works well, you don't hear about it at all. Only when it fails does it ever make discussions in the public sphere... No one ever says... and on tonight's news... the National Institutes of Standards and Technology functioned perfectly well! 

Truth is, your day is intimately connected with the government. your radio? station that woke you up? that food in your fridge and eggs you ate in your breakfast? the water running to your shower?, the road you drove on? The internet you're using now? Within a single day, you've used more of the government;s resources than you care to admit.  

My problem with libertarianism is it's a philosophy that basically says, markets are the answer to everything. inefficient? use a market! without thinking of either the ethics involved, or the goods being traded.  I doubt I'd find any liberal that would ever say "government is the solution to everything!" but the opposite is true in libertarians.  

Just to steal some examples from Sandel, why can't I walk into an emergency room, and have the doctors provide their services through markets? The ones with the "highest willingness to pay" perhaps should get the care and attention of the doctor next?  

Or why can't orphanages sell their orphans on the free market? clearly if you have the highest willingness to pay, it means you'll cherish the child the best... so what's wrong with selling orphans?  

the idea that because you somehow believe in collective goods, even mundane UN sanctioned ones like say UNCLOS, somehow means you believe in god is absolutely absurd..... 

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:05 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:
The difference between us is, I see the benefit to civilization and thus to myself in keeping your house from burning down, and thus in collecting taxes to ensure that we civilization is able to prevent your house from burning down.

You, on the other hand, are just selfish. Self-concern is a good thing, to be sure - but selfishness is not.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:03 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:
I don't have an argument against my own responsibility for maintaining my own driveway.

But if I build the road connecting your driveway to the fire station, good luck getting me to allow that fire truck to drive on that road to put out the fire at your house.

On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Good luck getting me to build your drive way. You might want to buy a Kevlar vest first :)

On Mar 12,[masked]:57 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
What about the road leading to my house? What about the

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