Re: [atheists-27] Liberal and Conservative?

From: Duff M.
Sent on: Tuesday, March 12, 2013 5:21 PM
You didn't... but you agreed to it when you didn't move out of the country when you became a legal adult.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:17 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:
Social Contract. Where is this social contract. I don't remember signing it. 


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 5:02 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:
No, I am arguing in favor of the social contract that you fail to acknowledge. You didn't get to where you are on your own, and your descendants will not achieve even half of your success without the support of civilization around them.

The current government is wrong, this I agree. The influence of corporate money over political decisions and spending is promoting individual greed over the common interest and common good, and this must be corrected - but your solution is anything but a solution, and simply makes the problem even worse.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Hence you are initiating force.

On Mar 12,[masked]:50 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
"No duff you have already been using force.  You are already supporting a state that forces Zach to work half his life as a slave to pay its demands, and regulates the other half of his life"

I don't support the current state. I just don't support the lack of state that you are arguing for.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:49 PM, bruce <[address removed]> wrote:
No duff you have already been using force.  You are already supporting a state that forces Zach to work half his life as a slave to pay its demands, and regulates the other half of his life

On Tuesday, March 12, 2013, Duff Means wrote:
Yet again, you're turning to force first.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:45 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Guess we're just going to have to.fight it out. Gear up

On Mar 12,[masked]:43 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
Your ownership of any property that interferes with my access to food, water, medical care, or any other need constitutes a coercive force, in that it allows you to set a price higher than I can afford, in order for you to take ownership of my property. Competition would eliminate this coercive force, but once you have that property, you have established a monopoly and as such eliminated any opportunity for competition.

This is where regulation becomes necessary, and libertarianism fails.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:

Property is not using force is I own the property. I don't accept the concept of ownerless property. If you don't own it, you don't have a say over it.

On Mar 12,[masked]:31 PM, "Duff Means" <[address removed]> wrote:
"Doctors should be able to serve whoever they want - the richest or the most sick. It's the doctors prerogative."

Unless they have accepted a contract to provide services on an as-needed basis to any who come seeking aid. But it is their prerogative not to accept such a contract...

"
Businesses should be able to tell gay people to go to Hell and get out of their store (good luck withstanding the social pressure but it's their prerogative.)"

Not sure if I disagree with you on this one - it's a gray area for me.

"
A man with a fire extinguisher should be able to choose which houses on fire he wants to put out. It's up to him."

As it stands right now, he has that right, so long as he obtained that fire extinguisher on his own. And yet, failing to use it when it is needed represents a coercive force.

"You'd have to be specific. I could threaten them for trespassing. They could get something for free while suffering the danger of getting shot. :) 

Property rights tend to solve this small little problem. "

But now you're using force. Property rights in and of themselves represent a force, when the property in question serves a common interest.


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:27 PM, Zach Moore <[address removed]> wrote:
You'd have to be specific. I could threaten them for trespassing. They could get something for free while suffering the danger of getting shot. :) 

Property rights tend to solve this small little problem. 


On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Duff Means <[address removed]> wrote:
"I'd probably let him use the roa





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