School Vouchers

From: Don W.
Sent on: Saturday, March 23, 2013 8:15 PM
One of of the church-state issues that will be raised in our Secular Voter's Forum is the candidate's support for school vouchers.  This is something that can only be supported through legislatures.  It never passes in a referendum even in very religious and/or Republican regions.  We are very good at talking about our philosophy.  We are not often as good at visibly getting out and supporting our values.  To what extent do we have a shared obligation to take some effort to move the political world toward the values that we have?
 
This just came out from the Secular Coalition for America:
 
Senate Voting TODAY: Tell Your Senators To Say NO to School Vouchers!
As you read this, the Senate is considering an amendment to the 2014 Budget Resolution which would create a federal private school voucher program. Voting on the budget could occur today. Please contact your Senator to voice your opposition to any amendment to the Fiscal 2014 Senate Budget Resolution (S. Con Res. 8) that creates a private school voucher program.
This program would allow taxpayer money to directly fund the indoctrination of children with religious teaching. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, over 80 percent of all private school students attend religiously affiliated schools. The majority of students who use vouchers will use them to fund their education at one of these religious institutions, which seek to promote specific religious traditions and beliefs.
 
 
Our country is moving substantially toward a secular world view.  However, the religous side will not give up easily.  I would love to have the SCA feel that DC has support in DC.  To what extent do they have our support?  To what extent do we want to mobilize in response to these important issues?
 
Don
 

From: Tom Fields <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Saturday, March 23,[masked]:00 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE

To all,
 
Let's focus on church-and-state issues, as well as our own personal experiences, and avoid libertarian-vs-statist issues.  How about a discussion of the new pope, the future of evangelical Christianity, or society's evolving attitude toward unbelievers?  Here, we can find some common ground.
 
Tom Fields

From: "Don Wharton" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Saturday, March 23,[masked]:51:29 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE

I composed this last night and my email system refused to send it at that time.
 
We have been losing members at a furious rate.  For your information one of them left this
 
When asked why he or she was leaving the group, XXXXXXX answered:
Too much right-wing bullshit. I don't consider that vulgar ideology of greed and hatred for the less fortunate to be acceptable atheist ethics. We're supposed to be better than the right-wing/fundies. I'm not defending those who refuse to take responsibility for their own lives, but those less fortunate through no fault of their own deserve our compassion and help to get back on their feet, if we are able to do so. 
 
 
Obviosly most of us are not like what the above ex-member is objecting to.  However, it only takes one person who is excessive in the use of our list to distort how people see things.  Note that I passionately want to include those with libertarian sensibilities in our community.  Censorship is a last resort that should be used only for cases of incivility or illegal activity that substantially damages the positive feelings that we have for our group.  
 
As you all know I am willing to lose members to develop a channel of shared communication that I expect that we will all cherish.  What I love about our atheist community is getting together and talking about things.  As organizer here I have a way to encourage others to do what I love.  However, as we have seen perhaps it is better if we chill out a bit with the intensity on THIS particular topic.
 
Don
 
 

From: Chad <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 22,[masked]:33 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE

Sorry, I was thinking of Afghanistan.  
However, if you take into account the long term care of injured vets with totals of both Iraq and Afghanistan the cost will be more than China's GDP.  The worst return on investment in the history of man.
Chad

From: Chad <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 22,[masked]:03 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE


"We have invested over $2 trillion in the Iraq war and we now have that country being run by a tyrant that is as far as I can tell not much better than Sadam."
That's like buying 30% of China's GDP.  I'd say Bin Laden, at least, tactically won. Mind boggling, 

Chad
From: Don Wharton <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 22,[masked]:38 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE

Yes Carl, we noticed how deeply you were motivated by it.  Moreover, I think many of us appreciated the intelligence that you put into the effort.
 
Given that we are an atheistic group a very common activity will be the debunking of religious beliefs.  Frankly what have seen is exactly that.  Just because a given ideology is not reported to be a relevalation from God does not mean that it does not have all the properties of a religion.  We have demonstrated that as a group we have excellent skills that we can bring to dismantling nonsense of any form.  Frankly we can expect that a major category of discussion will be precisely this dismantling to nonsense.  This is what we are here for to a large extent.
 
As an aside to Zack here, the libertarians in our culture are doing a better job than the atheist/secular humanist communities in arguing for diminished investments in the war on drugs and on dealing with insanities such as our military adventurism.  We have invested over $2 trillion in the Iraq war and we now have that country being run by a tyrant that is as far as I can tell not much better than Sadam.  This paragraph is not about libertarianism.  It is about the relative effectiveness in arguing for a couple of areas that most of us would agree constitute the moral good. 
 
Don
 

From: Carl Stoll <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 22,[masked]:08 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-27] Let's have a NO LIBERTARIANISM ZONE

Actually, I found it a stimulating experience. It gave me the motivation to clarify certain ideas, as well as to practise my polemical skills, thus becoming even more caustic and truculent than before. CS

2013/3/22 Don Wharton <[address removed]>
I think many of us have had enough libertarianism for now.  Let us totally drop that topic (and the refutation of it) until Sunday.
 
Note that people are encouraged to continue private emailing on this topic if they wish.  I would be nice to let some other topics rise to the top of our shared attention.  Beyond that what is being proved is that people are able to create a quasi-religion out of premises that are not nominally religious.  All that is required is a cultural meme set that allocates all good to some preferred meme set and all evil to the opposite meme set. 






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Don Wharton ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Don Wharton, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Carl Stoll ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Carl Stoll, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Don Wharton ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Don Wharton, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Chad ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Chad , visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Chad ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Chad , visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Don Wharton ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Don Wharton, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Tom Fields ([address removed]) from DC Atheists Meetup.
To learn more about Tom Fields, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]


People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy