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Julius Streicher's anti-Semitic discourse

From: Carl S.
Sent on: Thursday, July 25, 2013 12:58 PM
Sorry to change the subject so abruptly, but in the course of my genocide efforts I wrote this little piece that I am submitting for your comments. Still in draft stage, mind you. CS

JULIUS STREICHER'S ANT-SEMITIC DISCOURSE

I copied all the Streicher material I could find in the online German Propaganda Archive of Calvin College. On my first search I bagged three items: 

1. Two Speeches by Julius Streicher (1933)
2. Secret Plans against Germany Revealed (1933)
3. Madagascar (1938)

1. comprises speeches Streicher made as a public office-holder. 2 and 3 are articles published in Der Stürmer. 1. said nothing about Jews and was discarded. 2 and 3 (especially 2) contained so much material on Jews that I ceased looking for more. 

These articles (Copyright © 1999 by Randall Bytwerk) were already translated into English. The translations are of mediocre quality. Accordingly some of the cites were  slightly edited. 
 
TERMS OF ABUSE USED

Jewish world plague
the Jews are a  foreign race. 
hidden domination of the Jews 
(in Nov 1918) all the important positions in the (German) govt were suddenly occupied by Jews.
the Jewish people’s secret goals, ...
the crimes they (Jews) have  committed
secret goals of the Jewish people
Jewish plan for  world conquest.
The Criminal People
The Jew committed mass murder with unprecedented brutality. 
He ("the Jew") caused economic crises and threw workers out on the streets. 
More than 30 million people were killed in Soviet Judah under the leadership of the Jews Trotsky, Zinoviev, etc. 
The Jews wrote them (the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”)
The Jews will fight without pity. We must also fight without pity  against Pan-Jewry.
criminal Jewish brains.
The Jewish people  must be exterminated from the face of the earth.
The Jews betrayed Christ. 
Pan-Jewry knows that it has committed terrible crimes. 
the tortured (presumably by Jews) Gentile peoples could unite against the Jews. 
The Jewish people are the people of the Devil. 
They (Jews) are a people of criminals and murderers.

METHODOLOGY

Items 2 and 3 -- written 5 years apart -- have much the same tone of hostility toward Jews. Accordingly I find it reasonable to assume that Streicher's hostility toward Jews remained constant for many years. This assumption is strengtherend by reading Streicher's biography, which mentions no change in this respect. Consequently the material gathered -- albeit small in amount -- is judged to be representative of  Streicher's entire output.    

I judged the material from the "Protocols" and Deuteronomy to be only marginally relevant, since it was not written by Streicher himself. Moreover, I feared getting bogged down by issues that I am not competent to deal with. Accordingly none of these citations is reflected in these findings.   

FINDINGS 

1. Addressees of Streicher's accusations and threats

This is the kind of language that made Streicher notorious and that got him hanged. 

In item 2 Streicher thrice explicitly calls for extermination of the Jewish people.

1. "The Jews betrayed Christ. They committed a ritual murder on Golgotha. But Christianity developed, and if the Jew Paul had not twisted and falsified it, it would today be the greatest anti-Semitic movement in the world.
Exterminate them!"
 (Note: The translation from the German Propaganda Archive was deficient. The German exclamation "Ausrotten!" was translated literally, as "Exterminate!". But it actually means "Exterminate them!") 
2. "The Jews -- with their terrible, murderous thoughts -- deserve to be exterminated." 
3. "The Jewish people are the people of the Devil. They are a people of criminals and murderers. The Jewish people must be exterminated from the face of the earth."
In addition, Strecher states that Germans must be pitiless toward Jews. 

Item 2 contains extensive quotes from the notorious anti-Semitic forgery, the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"• and brief quotes from Deuteronomy, all used to prove how evil Jews are. 

Streicher earnestly assures his readers that the "Protocols" are authentic, although they had been credibly exposed as forgeries 12 years before, in 1921, by The Times of London. The German press republished The Times' findings. In one of his extant speeches, Adolf Hitler acknowledged that the Frankfurter Zeitung hadf denounced the "Protocols" as forgeries, but with his customary panache, he nonetheless insisted on their authenticity. Hitler cited no grounds for his glib assertion, except to imply that the Frankfurter Zeitung was owned by Jews and that its statenments were consequently self-serving. 

As a matter of fact, much of the German press was then owned by Jews, since Jews had founded most German newspapers in the late 19th century. Apparently the US press, too, is currently (2013) mostly owned by Jews (as far as can be determined, since ownership of media need not be publicly disclosed).  However this is a recent development that arose as a result of the removal of restrictions on media monopolies decreed by the deregulation frenzy initiated by the Carter admn [masked]?) and continued by its successors.    

The citations from Deuteronomy are certainly bloodthirsty, but Deuteronomy was written a couple of thousand years ago, when humanity was still at a very primitive stage of development, long before dental floss had been invented. 

For us to consider the bloodthirsty citations from Deuteronomy relevant to present-day politics, we would require evidence that some Jews nowadays base their polt programs on it. An important factor in this regard is the issue of whether Deuteronomy's bloodthirstiness is formulated in the indicative or the imperative mood, and if the latter, whether its murderous commands were restricted to speciic historical circumstances or instead formulated as eternally binding orders valid until Judgement Day.  

Jews usually appear in Streicher's writings as an undifferentiated mass. Individual Jews are rarely mentioned. 

Exceptions: 

When writing about the period between 1918 and 1923 or so, when Jews occupied important govt positions, Streicher mentions none of their  names. 

"... all the important positions in the (German) govt were suddenly occupied by Jews."

Later on he does mention Walter Rathenau, who was one of those German Jewish politicians, but does not name him as one of the powerful Jewish office holders.  Streicher writes: 

"These are the Jews of whom Walter Rathenau wrote even before the war in the 'Neue Freien Presse' (a quality daily paper published in Vienna, Austria): ...."
In the early 1920s Walter Rathenau became the German foreign minister and one of the pet peeves of Germany's ultra-right. So much so, indeed, that Rathenau was murdered by a gang of German proto-Fascists. Streicher would be expected to gloat over Rathenau's murder, which had occurred a decade before this article (Secret Plans against Germany Revealed ) was published. But he merely cites Rathenau as the author of a news article, without even mentioning that Rathenau was a Jew. 
 
Streicher names 2 Jewish Bolshevik leaders, accurately calling them mass murderers (although his numbers are off the charts): 

"More than 30 million people were killed in Soviet Judah under the leadership of the Jews Trotsky, Zinoviev, etc." 

However Streicher neglects to mention that other Jews strove for peaceful solutions to the crises of the times. For example, the leader of the German Communist Party (KPD), the Polish-German Jewess Rosa Luxemburg, who harshly criticized the Bolsheviks' reign of terror and called for democratic rule in Russia, including all parties that acknowledged majority rule. 

Luxemburg opposed the Spartakist insurrection in Berlin instigated by the radical wing of the KPD in November 1919. During the insurrection, that eventually failed, she went into hiding. She was betrayed by a Gentile KPD official, Wilhelm Pieck. She and her fellow party leader Karl Liebknecht were savagely beaten by a death squad secretly encouraged by the Social Democratic War Minister Noske, shot dead and dumped into a nearby canal. 

Waldemar Pabst, the army petty officer who led the death squad, let the stool pigeon Wilhelm Pieck go as thanks for his services. Pieck later became an important leader of the KPD, turning it into an obedient puppet of Moscow. In 1949 he became the first president of Communist East Germany (also the last, since he was succeeded in 1961 by a committee that performed the duties of head of state).   

Apart from Trotsky and Zinoviev, the only occasion when Streicher mentions Jewish names is when writing about current events, specifically about a planned world Jewish conference to be attended by prominent Jews. 

" ... organizers are the Jewish  finance lords of England, the Anglo-Jewish Industry and Trade  Federation. The conference will be organized by the Jewish attorney  Samuel Volkmeyer from America and the big Jewish industrialist Lord  Melchett of England. ... All the leading Jews of the world will come together. The leading rabbis (they are the political leaders of World Jewry) and the Jewish millionaires and billionaires, the bank and stock exchange leaders, the heads of trusts and major Jews in commerce."

Streicher evidently considers these men to be the leaders of the Jews, his sworn enemies. Moreover he predicts that these big Jews will plot against Germany! The name of the article is "Secret Plans against Germany Revealed".  

"The purpose of the conference is to make decisions and provide  guidelines directed against National Socialist Germany." 

"The (powerful Jews)  want to continue and intensify Pan-Jewry’s boycott war against Germany. They will attempt to fight Germany until it bends to their will or is forced to its knees. They will stop at nothing. They will lie and slander, and continually attempt to incite the whole world against Germany." 

Plotting against Nazi Germany must have been the ultimate crime for Streicher, the culmination of Jewish perfidy. We would expect him to rage and rant with unparallelled fury against the Jewish bankers, rabbis and corporate bigwigs who he predicted would gather to cynically conspire against the steadfast, honest and plainspoken German Volk of Nazi lore.   

If Streicher detests the Jews, isn't it reasonable to expect him to blame the Jewish leaders for a large part, or even most, of the Jews' alleged crimes?  However Streicher does not vilify these big Jews. He refrains from calling them names. The worst he has to say of then is that in their struggle against Germany "They will stop at nothing. They will lie and slander ..."

He does not call the Jewish leaders murderers, criminals, or "a plague". He does not accuse these Jewish leaders of planning world conquest. He does not charge the Jewish leaders with being pitiless, with writing the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion”, with committing terrible crimes, or with having awful  and murderous thoughts. 

And he does not say that the Jewish leaders deserve to be exterminated from the face of the earth. 

He says all these things solely and exclusively about the entire Jewish people. 

2. Statements of fact that are not accusations

"The leading rabbis ...  are the political leaders of World Jewry" 

3. Nature of the charges and evidence produced

Most of the the charges Streicher hurls at Jews are (a) extremely serious, (b) extremely vague, and (c) not backed up by any evidence. 

In order to be credible, quasi-statements like "the crimes they (Jews) have  committed" and "the Jewish world plague" would have to be be supported by reams of evidence. If such charges were true, the evidence supporting them should be cited in footnotes. 

A smallish share of the charges is fairly specific, such as: 
1. More than 30 million people were killed in Soviet Judah under the leadership of the Jews Trotsky, Zinoviev, etc. 
2. The Jews wrote the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”
3. The Jews betrayed Christ. 
4. The leading rabbis ...  are the political leaders of World Jewry. 

Although Streicher cites no evidence, the truth of these assertions can nowadays easily be ascertained by consulting online encyclopaedias, whose existence, by the way, was rendered possible, among others, by Al Gore, who played a leading role in propelling the enabling legislation through the US Congress.  

Charge 1 is largely true. However Gentile Bolsheviks and some non-Bolshevik Russians were equally bloodthirsty.
Charge 2 is utterly false. The "Protocols" were written by a succession of Orthodox Christian forgers. 
Charge 3 is undecided. 
4 is obviously bullshit

CONCLUSIONS

To summarize the findings:

The thrust of Streicher's allegations is to incite hatred of all Jews, not of any specific Jewish malefactor. Jews are portrayed as intrinsically evil. Their evil nature is alleged to have manifested itself thousands of years ago and to have continued unabated until the present day. The solutions that Streicher proposes to the allegedly grave problem of Jewish evildoing are (1) to denounce, defeat and expel all Jews; however this merely postpones the definitive solution, which is (2) to murder all Jews.  

The allegations of Jewish evildoing are mostly vague and unproven, and evidently serve as mere pretexts to justify extermination of the Jewish "race". The spurious charges are obviously intended to manipulate readers' emotions and short-circuit their reasoning faculties. This  is made obvious by the repeated rhetorical trick of 1. alleging hideous crimes and immediately 2. exhorting readers to commit genocide: 

"The Jews betrayed Christ. They committed a ritual murder on Golgotha. But Christianity developed, and if the Jew Paul had not twisted and falsified it, it would today be the greatest anti-Semitic movement in the world.
Exterminate them!"

"They flow from hatred and a lust for murder, from the lust for Gentile money and property. They come from criminal Jewish brains. The people who peacefully go about their work do not deserve to be exterminated. The Jewish people that has such awful and murderous thoughts deserves extermination."

"The Jewish people is the people of the Devil. It is a people of criminals and murderers. The Jewish people must be exterminated from the face of the earth."
 
The few credible allegations that Streicher produces of crimes committed by Jews cannot be ascribed to anyone else than the specific Jews who  committed them. The arguments Streicher brandishes to prove collective guilt are without exception ridiculous. 

Consequently Streicher's entire discourse, from beginning to end, is deceptive and manipulative in nature, even if a few odd fragments of fact are encrusted in it, as if by accident. Streicher's entire discourse must be utterly rejected as unacceptable in civilized society. 

Any reproaches that might legitimately be addressed to Jewish individuals or groups -- or to anyone alse for that matter -- must be couched in the language of orderly and objective discussion of matters of fact, from which violent language, menaces and appeals to raw emotion must be rigorously banished. 

















2013/7/25 Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]>
I am not changing anything.  Faith:  "Strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."  And "firm belief in something for which there is no proof".  Yes, it is also sometimes defined as signifying a strong belief, but clearly the prevailing distinction between faith and belief more generally is that faith is a belief that is held either without any empirical justification, or out of proportion to the available empirical evidences. Synonyms include trust and loyalty.  Since faith is a belief that is not held proportionate to the available empirical evidences, it also tends to be a strongly held belief.  People who hold beliefs in proportion to the available evidences hold their beliefs with different degrees of conviction.

Someone who does not believe that the sun will rise tomorrow is wrong.  someone who believes there is no danger to them self in walking past the leading edge of a cliff is wrong.  This is true for everyone, there is no difference here if the someone is you or if it anyone else.  What you like to do is distinguish between yourself and everyone else and apply a normal, functional standard to yourself and a different, anything goes, abnormal, dysfunctional standard to everyone else.  There is no proper justification for doing that.  Your status in our universe is no different from everyone else's status.  

On Jul 25, 2013, at 7:49 AM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:

Matthew,

Faith defined according to Oxford: Translate faith | into French | into German | into Italian | into Spanish

noun

  • a strongly held belief or theory:   the faith that life will expand until it fills the universe

The example given is a scientific example.  If we are going to change the meaning of a lexicon, then I guess  you are correct.


Also, I believe if someone were to walk off the edge of a cliff, then it is subjective and I have no problem with it.  I am agnostic, but I am too logical and fearful to perform such an act.  Life is valuable to the  individual.  If one wants to take his or her own life, then so be it.  However, when another takes a life from another, then I have a problem because it is now a crime.


Agnostics reason all the time.  Since there is so much "uncertainty" in life.  I judge on a case by case basis.  I could never give a universal and blanket condemnation about any proposition.  Even "scientific theories" change when challenged, if a set of evidence warrants it.


Why truth?  Why not "untruth, uncertainty, or even ignorance"? ...not as its coarseness, but refinement.  this will to truth is going to tempt us to  many a hazardous enterprise.  A celebrated veracity which many have spoken with reverence!!  We must began to recognize "untruth" as a condition of life....to renounce false judgement, would be to renounce life.


Reece



On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:22 AM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:
No, belief is not a synonym for faith.  Faith is a type of belief that is not properly justified.  Outside of social contexts, we should avoid faith, we should not reach conclusions about how the universe works with faith.

On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:15 AM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:

Matthew,

Then you agree.  All we have is ¨belief¨ and not truth.  All we have is ¨faith¨  I am in agreement with that.

Belief and faith are one in the same

Reece


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 9:12 PM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:
We see many people foolishly elevating belief for the sake of belief itself to a virtue and we want to distance ourselves from that folly.  Some people think they accomplish this distancing by dropping the word belief, along with word faith, from their vocabulary.  I disagree.  Belief is the right word and it applies here.  There is nothing wrong with having beliefs, all educated adults should have lots of well justified beliefs.   I think a much better way to distance ourselves from the folly of elevating faith to a virtue is to emphasize empiricism.

On Jul 25, 2013, at 12:00 AM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:

Matthew,

You wrote, ¨we are fully justified in believing definitively that this conclusion is correct because all of modern history shows that this method is the most reliable in producing successful results.¨

Yes, ¨belief¨ and not ¨knowing¨ is correct.  I can believe via empiricism to conclude logically, but it does not incorporate ¨truth¨.  Why is it so hard for people to simply admit that they do not ¨know¨ something to simply accept that fact.  It is ok not to ¨know¨  really.


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 8:48 PM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:
Not having certainty, and not being justified in reaching a definitive conclusion, are not the same.  We all reach definitive conclusions in the presence of uncertainty.  Again, if the available evidences strongly favor one conclusion over the competing conclusions then we are fully justified in believing definitively that this conclusion is correct because all of modern history shows that this method is the most reliable in producing successful results.  The evidences strongly favor the conclusions that minds are always physical, that our universe is indifferent to life, that life is chemical, that our multiverse sums to nothing and exists because nothing is unstable.  All of these evidences conflict with the supernatural universe conclusion.       People are not agnostic when the evidences are not agnostic.  When the evidences have an overall direction people follow the evidences to the corresponding conclusion.  Everyone does this.  This is why people do not walk past the leading edge of cliffs.

Mathematics is logical rules, it defines what could true.  By matching what is observed to mathematical rules we can sometimes find a logic behind what is true.    

On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:44 PM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:

Joe,

I agree that morality is a useful concept as well.  Because ¨certainty¨ is always in question,  I will remain agnostic for that reason alone.  Math is certain because we created it.  Math is not ¨intrinsically¨ certain.  Man created it to build and perform other useful act.  I believe some things are inexplicable and appears to be a ¨miracle¨ to me.  I am a man of science.  I have a PhD in Epidemiology and I still question science as a ¨certainty¨

¨God¨ is one of those things.   What do you mean by ¨God¨ is the real question.  I think it is a power that is inexplicable....no aims...no intentions...no purpose...to me it is just a power....i do not pray because i do not know it this thing call ¨God¨  wants to be praised.

BY my definition, a ¨God¨ could exist.  This is why I am agnostic.  Therefore, I do not know anything for ¨certain¨ so, I am always open to hear varying opinions.

Reece


On Tue, Jul 23, 2013 at 7:06 AM, Joseph B <[address removed]> wrote:
That's part of the reason why I actually like Sam Harris's frame on this. He definitely leans utilitarian, but if it's "Maximizing the well-being of conscious creatures" that precludes things like hedonistic excess, or inflicting suffering on someone for personal gain. But yea, like Matthew said, no doubt morality is a tough question to precisely define that nonetheless is a useful concept. 

Joe. 


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 6:02 PM, Carl Stoll <[address removed]> wrote:
I would like to remark that some participants have endeavoured to deduce morality from utility, i.e. morality is a form of maximiing pleasure or minimizing suffering, by means of a complex aggregation of individual pleasures and sufferings. The original utilitarians like Bentham were condemned by Christians because the latter held utilitarianism's underlying hedonism to be profoundly immoral. For example, many moral duties oppose the plesure principle. 
How do you explain this contradiction?. 
Merely aggregating pleasure and suffering becomes dubious when one person's pleasere is reduced in order to increase that of eomeone else. 


2013/7/22 Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]>
Carl,

That was emphasize in that manner on purpose because the conversation referencing "evil vs good".  Bush claimed Saadam was "evil" on many occasions.  Of course, a much  broader perspective is in order.

Reece


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 4:52 PM, Carl Stoll <[address removed]> wrote:

I approve your condemnation of the Bush. However I find your arguments rather feeble. You write "Bush claimed that Saddam was "evil" so he killed him.  I do not believe we should be able to enter another country and impose our will because we do not believe in their philosophy" Why do you assume that Saddam represented Iraq's "philosophy". He was never elected to office and was widely hated.

Valid grounds for invading a country can be provided only by international law. In this case they were lacking. There is no need to speculate about anyone's "philosophy".

I am continually amazed by Americans' ignorance and disregard for international law, even on the part of those who criticise US imperialism. In weaker countries critics of imperialist aggression constantly cite international law. At least I have personally observed that in Latin American  and Europe. 

This is a serious problem. Mere moralistic denunciation can easily be derailed into demagogic and opportunistic paths.  That is because morality is not codified and arranged hierarchically as is international law. That makes it easy to squeal about one moral rule while blatantly ignoring others. 


2013/7/22 Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]>
Joe,

You make a very strong and valid point.  However, I believe that  you and I disagree with the term "truth".  You assume that you have knowledge of it.  I am not implying that it is "ok" to commit genocide.  However, we must investigate before we conclude.  I mean with "any" questionable preposition no matter how absurd it may seem.

Bush claimed that Saddam was "evil" so he killed him.  I do not believe we should be able to enter another country and impose our will because we do not believe in their philosophy.

I think the United Nations should have stopped Bush.   We must thoroughly investigate and get others involved and conclude with a general consensus. You are over exaggerating my  agnostic disposition.

Reece


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 10:52 AM, Joseph B <[address removed]> wrote:
"I am not referring to "law". We have a "right" to be unethical, amoral, or non-religious without breaking laws. There is a clear and distinct difference. You cannot judge a culture for it's actions because we "disagree" if it is not breaking their laws."
See but this conflates what is legal with what is ethical (Which is something btw, folks in the illegal immigration debate always confuse). The odd part is, if a society for example, in their legal system removed your right to be "unethical, amoral, or non-religious" then under an ethically agnostic position you would be perfectly ok with that, since you can't judge a culture for it's actions.  It was legal in Germany to find jews hiding in basements and report them to the Gestapo to go to concentration camps. That's legal, but most certainly unethical.
 
Look a culture isn't being judged because I just happen to disagree, a culture ought to be judged in whether or not certain practices promote the well-being of conscious creatures. Nobody is ignoring the power of religion... on the contrary I'm very much aware of it's power, good and bad. The key problem I have with religion is precisely how Matthew framed it... It's in the "how we know what we know". And a system that relies on revealed knowledge means it is impervious to evidence. I can tell you that homosexual behavior exist in nature, that it isn't a conscious choice as per neuroscience or psychology, that there is no statistically significant difference in deviant behavior between homosexuals and heterosexuals, etc. but your ethical system would be impervious to all that evidence if your revealed text condemns it. Even more pernicious, is the tendency to then use the mantle of science to justify a conclusion (in this case say homosexuality is wrong) to fit the evidence accordingly, muddling the truth between rigorous studies and bunk science funded by think tanks etc. .
 
The postmodernists fought this fight in the 90's and royally lost. I think the subjectivist appeal is in how exotic a reality it creates (that there truly is no external out there, that it's all constructed separately by everyone), and it's a convenient philosophy to avoid the act of judging. Open mindedness isn't about accepting the truth of everything. It's about the ability to entertain ideas and understand it using logic, but ultimately judging on the basis of logic, reason, and evidence. To say for example that genocide can't be judged because a german regime claims "hey, it's our cultural practice to you know, exterminate jews" is patently absurd. I wouldn't judge that wrong simply because I disagree with it, but because the harm of killing millions of people for no good reason is self-evident.
 


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 9:11 AM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:
Joe,

Cross cultural-ism is "subjective" in the realm of ethics,  I am not referring to "law".  We have a "right" to be unethical, amoral, or non-religious without breaking laws.  There is a clear and distinct difference.  You cannot judge a culture for it's actions because we "disagree" if it is not breaking their laws.  Who are we to make that decision?  

Again, I am agnostic because I am open-minded and I do not assume I have answers to a complex and crude question involving religion, ethics or morality.  

We simply cannot ignore the power of religion and its effects on society.  I think that is fascinating.  I also think it is a fantasy similar to Santa Clause..

There is nothing "wrong" with making up "realities" to best "fit" our understanding and produce a "subjective" quality of life.

We all do it, including the atheist!  I simply believe that atheist assert a more "logical" approach when inferring. I cannot not be an atheist because I do not have answers, only questions, which makes me ignorant.  I am ok without "knowing" however, I will not cease seeking.

"God is a rude and crude answer - a piece of indelicacy to us thinkers" Nietzsche

Reece


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 1:51 AM, Joseph B <[address removed]> wrote:
I get the feeling that what we're doing is applying a simple heuristic ("always be fair: certainty with anything is wrong") and that simple heuristic is the genesis of the entire agnostic argument. Take this heuristic to an extreme and there really is no difference between an STD vaccination program and genital mutilation, genocide and public education. 

Universal right and wrong is actually something that anthropologists are finding, much in the same sense of Chomsky's universal grammar. The details of the ethical systems may differ, but we are born with a set of "guidelines" that we use to navigate the world. There's a large number of independently developed versions of the Golden Rule around the world for example, you can find that rule from as far away as India, to nearly all of the major religions. (Shermer covers research into these global principles in the Science of Good and Evil) The Universal Declaration of Human Rights is another example of this, with most member countries signing on (The USSR + satellites didn't because of free entry/exit of countries, and the middle east didn't because it allowed apostasy)  

The reason we have so many problems right now is simply because people use a combination of instinct, social pressures from others around them, and social institutions like religion to not only decide their day to day ethical decisions, but what the "ideal" decision/ the standard moral code is. Like Matthew has brought up, the issue here is in the "how" we got these codes in the first place. We may have a built in moral code, but we also have built in things like aggression and violence, tribal loyalties etc. that get in the way, and are codified in these religious texts (as you would expect from an ethical system built over 2,000 years ago or even older). It's why for example it was perfectly ok to kill infidels, or simply tax them, to own slaves, in these texts.  

If we say that all of morality is simply "subjective", then there is no way for any of us to condemn genocide, or child abuse, rape, torture, etc. Sam Harris for example, brought up the practice of Kundun? in Albania, where you get to kill a relative of a killer. If the basis of how you act is "revealed knowledge" or part of "cultural practices" then we can most definitely expect the same problems we've been having today... you can't condemn any of this and we just wring our hands. Ethics is relative because people fear criticizing shitty practices out of the fear that they're "culturally imposing values" on others. They're relative because no major player is willing to call out the bad in some religions out of "respect"... And while I can understand the fear given the horrific screw up the West has done with colonialism, truth ought to be independent of it's purveyor... its truth value ought to be evaluated on its own merits. If a child molesting killer told you to fasten your seatbelt, the fact that this is a despicable human being doesn't make his advice right or wrong. 

Finally, a universal set of ethics doesn't mean there's only ONE way to be ethical. Again, like Sam Harris brought up, there could be a number of different ways to get to societies that foster the well being of conscious creatures. Asking for a global discussion on this based on reason isn't the same as asking that it be forced at the barrel of a gun. I don't think any of us is suggesting we invade Saudi Arabia for not allowing women to drive, but we certainly ought to condemn it as vocally as we can. If however a genocide is underway in say Rwanda, it's the agnostic position to me that's dangerous, because that's precisely the situation where you would want immediate action. It's not relative, it's not culturally subjective, it's simply wrong and we ought to act accordingly. 

Joe





On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:29 AM, Maurice Edmonds <[address removed]> wrote:
Matthew,

You are correct; however, that is not a good reason to refrain from agnosticism.  I think religion is "good' for the weak.  I understand that critical analysis is not for everyone and one's psyche may not be able to handle "reality" of our created "false and synthetic" world.  Truth is not held by atheist or theist.  However, I believe atheist assert a more logical approach.  This is why a member of an atheist club, but not a member of any religious affiliations.  I do not believe religious groups apply empiricism, in the realm of epistemology to reason.  This is a major problem to me.

Reece


On Mon, Jul 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Mathew Goldstein <[address removed]> wrote:
Maurice, some Catholics like to argue that Aquinas favored metaphorical interpretation of the bible and the Church and its followers were always non-literalist.  But this is false history.  Aquinas himself was selectively a literalist.  He believed that Adam was literally the first human created from the earth and Eve was literally created from one of his ribs and they were literally the common original parental ancestors of everyone alive because god said so in the bible.  He was a non-literalist only to extent newly available secular knowledge conflicted with the bible compelled him to back peddle from the more complete literalism that was endorsed by the earlier Church.  Like Joseph says, all of history is one-sided this way.  All knowledge is naturalistic, supernatural knowledge assertions from all religions are false across the board, and have been in continuous retreat for many hundreds of years.  At some point, with the score millions for naturalism to zero for supernaturalism, its time to stop being agnostic and acknowledge that religion and supernaturalism were routed and defeated hundreds of years ago, religion and supernaturalism have been non-competitive and dying for a long time.  That a majority of people do not acknowledge this is their failure, it is not a good excuse for agnosticism.

On Jul 21, 2013, at 9:46 PM, Chad  <[address removed]> wrote:

> Aquinas



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