The Dallas-Plano Atheists Meetup Group Message Board › disturbing article about parents who prayed instead of getting medical treat

disturbing article about parents who prayed instead of getting medical treatment for their baby

Les
user 5743062
Addison, TX
Post #: 695
Mick
Mick_
Plano, TX
Post #: 218
Les,

At first I was appalled, but then I see that in addition to laying of hands, prayer, and anointment of oils they are fasting. They are willing to suffer themselves, the very tenant of Xian thinking, for the child and surely, a few lost meals, is much more damaging than her hemangioma. Their suffering has to be collectively greater than hers.

I bet it works. God right now is organizing the people against the parents so the daughter will receive healing. Just wait for it. That's why he invented medicine in the first place.

Seriously though, this is so horrible.
Les
user 5743062
Addison, TX
Post #: 696
goes on all the time.

listened to an ffrf.org podcast about one child where the parents had to shut their windows as the screams of the dying child disturbed the neighbors. And this was for an easily fixable condition.

At least Oregon will charge the parents. Not sure about that here in the Bible Belt.
Les
user 5743062
Addison, TX
Post #: 697
btw - in all fairness, this kind of nonsense is not limited to Xians.

A number of Atheists in this group believe in the insanity about immunizations causing autism.

They are certainly nice people, but the end result of following that mistaken belief is dead children.

Xians do not have a monopoly on mistaken beliefs.

If it were hard to form mistaken beliefs, and to feel that they are very real and true, we'd have far less Xians, and far less Atheists who join into these conspiracy theories.
Gregg
gregglll
Lewisville, TX
Post #: 47
btw - in all fairness, this kind of nonsense is not limited to Xians.

A number of Atheists in this group believe in the insanity about immunizations causing autism.

They are certainly nice people, but the end result of following that mistaken belief is dead children.

Xians do not have a monopoly on mistaken beliefs.

If it were hard to form mistaken beliefs, and to feel that they are very real and true, we'd have far less Xians, and far less Atheists who join into these conspiracy theories.

Exactly! Contrary to what many have said in the book group, being an an Atheist doesn't always mean one is rational.


A former member
Post #: 3
btw - in all fairness, this kind of nonsense is not limited to Xians.

A number of Atheists in this group believe in the insanity about immunizations causing autism.

They are certainly nice people, but the end result of following that mistaken belief is dead children.

Xians do not have a monopoly on mistaken beliefs.

If it were hard to form mistaken beliefs, and to feel that they are very real and true, we'd have far less Xians, and far less Atheists who join into these conspiracy theories.


Epic Fail.

Science has obviously become a religion to many in this group. Dont listen to your high preists, you call scientists. Talk to the families with aflicted children. Then decide.
Prashant S.
user 12729951
Dallas, TX
Post #: 3
I am an atheist and also have doubts that immunization might be causing some side effects. After all immunization is not a natural process it is a human invention which like every other human invention may have faults. More than 99% of medicines have some or the other side effects so why is the possibility of immunization having some side effects sound crazy. Definitely there is no direct evidence available to show that immunization is causing autism but I think we should wait until the fact finding research on it is complete. In spite of my doubts I would definitely not avoid getting immunizations for my children cause the benefits outweigh the autism risk. As far as the Xian parents and the poor child it is a very sad story. It is another extremist side of god and religion. I hope the child gets better under the state care.
Mick
Mick_
Plano, TX
Post #: 228
Immunization is the introduction of pathogens into the human system in order to create an immune response. This is a very natural occurrence as we are encounter these pathogens daily. It is because we have either 1) been infected by these pathogens and suffered the effects of the infection or 2) received them in a weakened or "dead" form (for bacteria) or purified capsid proteins (viruses) in which the T-cells and B-cells of our active immune system can then "remember" and produce anti-bodies when the virulent form is encountered in the "wild". Once exposed by either method we deal with subsequent invasion effectively and without symptoms of the infection. And we encounter these pathogens daily. All of this, I would argue, is actually quite natural. The only part that is not natural is the preservative and the adjuvants used.

There is none, as in zero, evidence that any long term side effect of vaccination exists to date other than allergic reactions in people that are allergic to eggs where many vaccines are cultured inside bacteria. Even this is changing today.

We do have many cases where vaccination ceased and epidemics followed. The pertussis epidemics in the UK and Sweden in the 70s and 80s; the measles outbreaks in the UK and Netherlands in the 1999-2000; the polio, measles and diphtheria epidemics in the aftermath of the Nigerian government advising the people to not trust Western medicine and refuse to be immunized. Even in 2005 in Indiana, there 34 cases of measles when an unvaccinated girl returned from Romania to a town where many parents had decided to forego immunization due to autism fears. That's as many cases of measles that we've had in America from 1986 to 1992 combined.

Fact is, one and only one, scientific article ever claimed any correlation between autism and vaccinations. It was published in 1998 by AJ Wakefield (http://www.ncbi.nlm.n...­. Fitzpatrick, primarily, checked all Wakefield's tests and hypothesis and was unable to find collaborating data. And neither has anyone else (http://linkinghub.els...­. In fact, if you check the original article now you'll see this:

Partial retraction in:

* Murch SH, Anthony A, Casson DH, Malik M, Berelowitz M, Dhillon AP, Thomson MA, Valentine A, Davies SE, Walker-Smith JA. Lancet. 2004 Mar 6;363(9411):750.


This is the journal that originally published Wakefield's article retracting their (and his) interpretation of the data (http://www.ncbi.nlm.n...­) that links chronic gastrointestinal problems to autism via vaccinations. It started in UK, but the CDC ordered all companies making vaccines to stop using thiomersal until they could investigate the possible link. When that happened it was "proof" to many that vaccinations were the cause and that the government was busy trying to cover it up (fear of vaccinations is not even a new idea:http://journals.cambr...­) . The anti-vaccination movement got strongest in America when Hollywood actors and actresses got involved and, of course, the masses of America trust a star more than they trust the World Health Organization when it comes to medicine. However, after many studies around the world, we are left with no evidence of any link as previously mentioned in this discussion. Even so, thiomersal is no longer used as a preservative.

Reality is that the number of cases of autism has gone up in the last 54 years since Asperger's syndrome was introduced (by Asperger -- every good physiological disorder is named after its founder). But when you look at the numbers it turns out the number of Asperger's syndrome diagnoses have gone up and that diagnosis alone accounts for the total increase per capita of "autism" cases. Keep in mind, Asperger's syndrome is different from most types of autism by its relative preservation of linguistic and cognitive development. Those with this diagnosis are functional, but are categorized by "significant difficulties in social interaction, along with restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior and interests." In other words, those odd "geeks and nerds" that just don't seem to fit in and can have a difficult time living in our society as it is. Recent studies have shown that Aspergert's diagnose has risen from 1.5:1 to 16:1 from 1944 to 2003. That means that in the past for each non-functional type of autism diagnosis there was 1.5 Asperger's but in 2003 there were 16 Asperger's for every 1 other type of autism diagnosis. I think those "geeks and nerds" have always been there.

So do we have an epidemic or are we just over diagnosing a disease that is subjectively diagnosed in the first place?

You may think science is construed as religion but with it there are facts and evidence that is sometimes interpreted incorrectly. The difference is with science the evidence eventually over weigh the bad interpretations as opposed to religion, where it doesn't.

Other Sources:
http://linkinghub.els...­
http://www.cdc.gov/va...­
http://www.ncbi.nlm.n...­
http://bentham.org/cd...­
http://www.childpsych...­
Les
user 5743062
Addison, TX
Post #: 703

Epic Fail.

Science has obviously become a religion to many in this group. Dont listen to your high preists, you call scientists. Talk to the families with aflicted children. Then decide.

Yes, by all means, let's base our medical decisions on anecdotal evidence!

When children die from these easily preventable diseases, we'll find a way to blame that on the religion of science too!

Full speed ahead - onwards, thru the Fog!!!!

Why, this couldn't be related to the anti-vaccination hysteria, could it?

"California has had zero deaths from whooping cough in the last 55 years.

The toll this year: 9 babies dead of whooping cough. So far."

http://scienceblogs.c...­
Gregg
gregglll
Lewisville, TX
Post #: 59
I am an atheist and also have doubts that immunization might be causing some side effects. After all immunization is not a natural process it is a human invention which like every other human invention may have faults. More than 99% of medicines have some or the other side effects so why is the possibility of immunization having some side effects sound crazy. Definitely there is no direct evidence available to show that immunization is causing autism but I think we should wait until the fact finding research on it is complete. In spite of my doubts I would definitely not avoid getting immunizations for my children cause the benefits outweigh the autism risk. As far as the Xian parents and the poor child it is a very sad story. It is another extremist side of god and religion. I hope the child gets better under the state care.

Thank you for immunizing your children.

I think the media in their quest to "show both sides" has given some people the false impression that the "link" between autism and vaccines is still a controversy. The fact is after numerous studies, the overwhelming evidence and overwhelming scientific consensus is that there is no link*.

Now just like on the subject of evolution, one can always find a couple crackpot scientists who say they disagree, but more often than not, they tend to be scientists who aren't even in the field that they are questioning.

And what I have found is that when I have spent hours studying the claims those who say vaccines cause autism (or evolution is false for that matter), is that they say things that are demonstrably false and show a complete lack of understanding how the scientific method works. It is actually very frustrating.**

I'll close by pointing out the people I know who actually are experts in the study of vaccines ALL vaccinate their children. This is not some theoretical construct for them. Many of them have told me about the devastation they have seen first hand caused by vaccine preventable illnesses, and they too want to do everything they can to protect their children.







*Note- and even if there were a link, that would still not establish causation.

**(Consider how you might feel if a few people who have taken a couple courses in your field, but have not yet mastered it, would make you feel if they started criticizing some of your field's basic concepts.)
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