Bad Days, Groups and Isolating, Phase Shifting, Social Proof

TallAFC: I'm a little above AFC and trying to improve my skill, but lately I have noticed that on some days I work it like a PUA, and on other days i'm bombing all over the place and just can't give it all my effort.

Tomas: Just keep reading everything you get your hands on in the websites, books, etc. Practice individual techniques each day, mix it up. Eventually it becomes so ingrained in you that you relax with it and have fun...Also, read over shit you've already read too, you start seeing things in it you didn't catch the first time, coupled with what you observe in the field.

Style: Yes, something like this happens to me. I call it AFC Reversion Syndrome. There are just those nights when I'm not on. The symptoms are:


• Don't make approaches
• When HB talks to you, can't think of anything to say
• Awkward fluff phone conversations with HBS.

Usually it's when I'm tired or have something else on my mind. It's very frustrating now that I'm used to getting good results any night of the week. And, what I've noticed about AFC Reversion Syndrome is that I become WORSE than an AFC. Because now I am conscious of the fact that I suck, and it throws me further off my game. The only way I can think to get over it is to practice all the time, so that it is internalized and becomes instinct. The only problem is that when I practice all the time, I end up with too many HBs calling. (It's weird, lately the HBs I sarge are calling me before I get a chance to call them--I'm trying to figure out what I'm doing right.)

ET: It doesn't matter what you do eg. sports, work etc. you are going to have shit days and then you are going to have days when you are on fire and totally unbeatable, the important thing to realize is that your best days are the true indication of how good you are, just forget about the bad days.

Mohap: You have to get in the right frame of mind. You can use tricks like NLP to do this.

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Groups and Isolating

Style: I've been experimenting with something new lately, especially on nights when I feel on. And this is entertaining groups and waiting to isolate. In other words, I'll approach one or two HBs in a group, tell a story that I need their opinion on, and if their other friends are listening I'll include them in the story or repeat it to them. Then I'll tell them I want to show them something cool that relates to the topic, and bring two or three with me somewhere quiet. Then I cube, magic, whatever. Eventually, the other girls follow too. And soon I find myself against the wall surrounded by say four girls. I'm getting really good at flirting with everyone. I do this by observing, and commenting on things about them bad body language (especially for the CB of the group). I'll also put my arms around the group of girls, smile, and say something like, "May I suggest beginning a faithful 4 (or whatever number) way relationship tonight."

I've found for some reason that the group will usually accept me. And, after flirting, teasing, and performing for about ten or more minutes, I can figure out which I have the best chance of going home with that night. Or, when I'm good enough, I can try for a threeway or something.

Also, instead of making a decision and isolating right away, I wait and see who is the most responsive. The additional plus to this is that I can #close with everyone in the group, because we'll all hang out cause we're all best friends now. And this means not only more options, but blurring is impossible because at least one of them will be calling me to hang out with them all again.

(Not to mention the amazing social proof--girls I've already sarged will come up to me in the group and say, "Wow, you are quite the ladies man." And I just smile and pretend like I don't know what it is: it's just some crazy magnetic power I exude. And of course, when you're entertaining a group of girls and another girl comes up to you, it's good social proof for them as well.)

Last weekend, one group I was with suggested coming back to their house for an after-after-party and getting stoned. It was so on. Unfortunately, I had a plane to catch in a couple hours and couldn't do it. In my AFC days, I'd kick myself for missing the opportunity. Now, I don't care cause Ihave their numbers and know there are plenty of more groups to be found.

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Phase Shifting

Style: Okay, I've had a great nine days, with three new f-closes. That's worthy of celebration for me. However, it could have been five. And my problem is that I didn't phase shift on two of the girls I could have. With one of them, she was even really tipsy and a guy in the bar was saying "she's the hottest girl here and I can tell she likes you by the way she looks at you." Right now, I am in a hotel room and she is lying in the bed next to me. That is not the bed she should be in!

My problem is that with a girl I really respect and have really deep rapport with, I have problems phase-shifting into the physical because I'm worried I'll break that rapport and trust we have. It's such a stupid AFC idea. But both of these girls were into me, and both times I stopped the PU just shy of getting physical. I think it's either an old fear ("could a HB really be attracted to ME") acting up, or it's a worry that an HB is too smart to fall for the patterns and routines that would lead to a physical close. I think there may even be a voice in my head that's already imagining a scene in which I get rejected on the close. I think the key here is a worry that I'm going to get rejected and/or break the trust that we have. The truth is, who cares? (And I rarely get rejected when I go for it with confidence.) But there's still a nice guy still lurking in my head that I have to get rid of. Any suggestions???

Specialist: This is precisely why the various "kiss readiness" tests exists.


Style: That's true. I just have to trust in the tests. The test I tend to fall back on is the Mystery one: look for three IOIs, then move in. What are the ones you use?


Ashton: May I suggest using active IOIs when you don't get the passive ones? I like Sisonpyh's hair brush test. If you're not familiar with it, search the Cliff Newsletter archive for entries by Sisonpyh, or buy his Double Your Dating book. Then there's Mystery's gentler active IOI for women you've just met, where you turn away from her and see if she reinitiates conversation.

If I had KNOWN the kiss readiness symptoms and tests a few years ago, I would NOT have wasted a whole bunch of years waiting for an indication from the HB that was ALREADY basically sending me every kiss-ready signal in the frigging BOOK. Needless to say, LJBF. If you really have the rapport and trust and respect that you claim, she isn't going to hold one attempt to kiss against you.


Style: True, true. And I know this. The funny thing is that a lot of guys--even RAFCs--eject when they get rebuked on one kiss. And I don't know a single girl who holds it against a guy. If it doesn't work, you just have to do what you do when she won't let you go down her pants in bed. You back up and try again with a modified approach. Or, if it's just impossible at the moment, build more rapport and try again next time you're together. The video game model has always been a good one for me.

Next time you hug her - and let me remind you that nice guys DO hug nice girls - do the hug, cheek to cheek. Then, STILL HOLDING THE HUG, pull your head back just far enough, make eye contact, and kiss her. Gently, slowly. Dude, she's in the bed next to you. She's sleeping. She KNOWS she can trust you to behave, she KNOWS you'll stop if she says "Stop." She isn't going to tell you she WANTS you to kiss her. She isn't going to freak when you let her know that you are seriously interested in taking the next step. I shouldn't have to say "Kino" here, but I'll say it anyway. Kino is IMPORTANT.

Violet Lotus: Pour on the kino from moment one. Then, no "phase shift" is required. Become a touchy-feely person. When you meet people, men or women, attractive or unattractive, *USE KINO ON THEM TO BUILD RAPPORT*. Be excessive in your frequency. Be mild in your placement. Touch shoulders, hands, &tc. (unobstrusive places) very often. As soon as you can do this, you will associate touching other people with BEING FRIENDLY and not necessarily seducing them.


Style: I can see this. And I do use kino. Maybe I need to plan out a kino map. In other words, good kino moves to accompany each stage of the PU. From the encounter (shoulder touching, hand slapping, whatever) to rapport building (rubbing arm, hand on back) to hair stroking, hand holding, and so on. Also, some here advocate lots of light kino. Others say a few well-placed very firm suggestive touches are good. Where do you fall?

Also, my last gf (a 9.9) went out, and would just go CRAZY from being touched by guys trying to PU her. She was always being touched and grabbed by guys who had just started talking to her. It literally made her sick. This makes me wonder if there's a way to get kino values, and modify kino technique according to the girl.

I think you may be right that getting kino theory down may be key. But I've never seen it really discussed in depth anywhere, other than the advice to just use lots of kino.

Try to be TOO touchy as you have already been TOO withdrawn. Then, and only then, will you realize how much is the happy medium for your style.

Final D: Although my problems aren't identical to yours, I think they come from a similar sense of respect for HBs. I tend to assume somehow that I need to find a soul-mate, and that sometimes troubles my pick-up. My method of fix, was to always remember that there is NO such thing as love at first sight. And to extend the metaphor, I kept in mind that ALL rapport and trust is a perpetual building process. If you and the chick have level-x rapport, it's silly of you to rely on it such that rapport either sinks to x-minus-1, or remains at x. Instead, you MUST continually push it to x-plus-1, and then on and on forever. In the absence of pushing, she recognizes one thing only -- that you aren't continually pushing forward. Now, of course, this act of pushing can't come across as demanding or ... dare I say it ... pushy, but in order to "convince yourself" that moving toward the lay is a great plan, not a nasty plan or a risky plan, try thinking of it that way.

Try thinking that all interactions with women are always moving forward. It's never over. If you get the first lay, that's no guarantee that you'll get the second lay. You have to fuck her well the first time, and then, in between, you have to re-seduce her. Therefore, all interactions are perpetual forward movement. (LOL ... chick-logic, the perpetual motion machine!) It's like walking backwards on an escalator. You get on at the wrong end, but if you want to, and know how, you can just outrun it. But, if you stop running, it will eventually place you right back where you started.


Style: This is just a perfect metaphor!

So, there is no stasis, it's never over, no woman is fully and permanently seduced, no interaction has a stable point of rest. Therefore, if there's someone presenting herself to you, you can either (a) push it forward or (b) LET it fall backwards by not pushing. Period.

So, when I remember that concept, the idea of "risking" losing rapport by being too pushy and not enough of a gentleman, entirely goes by the wayside.


Style: Yes, this is what happens with the HBs I somehow end up respecting too much. I respect myself out of the game, and end up back at the foot of the escalator. At the same time, I worry that I'll run up too fast, trip, fall on my face, and plummet to the bottom. I must figure out a way to get rid of that self-limiting belief--it's still the main problem in my game. Maybe I need to go for crash-and-burn *closes!

I do forget this concept of the escalator sometimes -- especially with people I'm re-meeting at reunions and the like. I'm 35, and there's a whole crop of old high-school and college friends coming back around after their divorces. With these people, I have such a natural rapport in the first place, plus some very old habits of behavior and patterns of interacting, that I tend not to sarge as much as just go with the flow. And then when one of the women is showing signs of interest -- the ratio of available single men is quite low, naturally, so I should be a pig in shit, shouldn't I? -- I forget that it's OK to be the "new" me.


Style: Yes, a lot of who you are is dependent on your environment, and you can find yourself reverting to past behavoir. However, I think that if you show the new you to your old friends a few times, you'll be comfortable in that skin. This happens to me too. And it frustrates me when I turn the PUA pilot-voice off.

Then I remind myself of the escalator metaphor, and lots of other things fall into place. First thing, is that rapport can't be relied upon to remain there for ya -- the act of not making a pass at her, can be as insulting as the act of making a pass at her (and don't "make a pass," of course ... SEDUCE). Next thing, is that I know all windows of opportunity are limited opportunities. I guess that's the same as the first thing. Other things are, that she appreciates people making moves on her -- other things are, that she wants the positive reinforcement even if she is tending toward rejecting you -- other thing is, that if you do let her treat you like a girlfriend you'll SOON be resenting her "manipulations" when she LJBF's you -- and all those other things kind of come to mind in a more concrete, meaningful way, if I remember the escalator.

I guess that's what I have to say about how to egg yourself on.

For me, I end up in these situations with people who are lukewarm or warm toward me -- definitely testing the waters, they are. But then I believe that I don't want to fuck her if she's too dumb for me, and not well educated enough -- naturally, later on I kick myself for that stupid tendency, and realize that it's just the old AFC me making excuses not to take risks. So, meeting high-school pals has been a difficult test, because lots of them are uneducated relative to my "ideal" -- I went to a high-falutin' private college, most of them either went straight to military (the guys) or at best to the State school. So I end up with this, "Nah, not good enough, couldn't build a lifetime soul-bond with someone whose horizons are so narrow" thing in my head.


Style: Yeah, I do that too. But when I decided to just go ahead with the PU anyway, it resulted in the lay report I posted a few days ago. Turned out great! And NOW you can believe there's rapport...

But then I remember the escalator, and I realize, I'm not trying to build a lifetime soul-bond. I'm trying to insert my penis into her vagina. Furthermore, I realize that the only REAL soul-bonds (unlike those imagined to be "true love" by AFCs and Disney princesses the world over) only happen AFTER the sex has taken place. Which is an obvious point, and one nobody here would generally quibble with, but a point that I "forget" just like you're forgetting other lessons. So, I kick myself with the escalator thing, and it all seems to fall back into a better PU mindset.

As you say, you're realizing that it's a mistake, you're just wondering how to learn how not to make that mistake.


Style: Good metaphor. It will help. I still need another piece though to get over it. And I guess that piece is practice and experience!

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Social Proof

JamesX: If one is interested in using social proof on exceptionally hot chicks that are Playboy / Penthouse Pet material (beauty of a 9 or 10), is it better than to be seen by them while accompanied with a chick who is also a 9 or 10?? or will the exceptionally hot chicks be just as impressed if they see you with an average looking chick ( 7 or 8) ??

Style: The more attractive the girl you're with, the more social proof you have. But, if you are after a 9/10 and you're with a 7/8, you can compensate. It's not just simply BEING with an HB that gets you the social proof. It's how she is behaving towards you. If you're both in a corner bored, it won't get you anywhere. But if you're with one or two 7/8s and they're hanging on your ever word, laughing all the time, having a lot of fun, and maybe even dirty-dancing with you, THAT is going to make a 9/10 want to meet you.

LoveDrop: I wouldn't characterize 7 or 8 as being "average looking"...I would describe a 7 or 8 as a good-looking female (ie a valid target to myself and other guys.) If you are truly referring to average (ie not attractive, or marginally attractive) then maybe you are talking about using some 5's or 6's for social proof? (Which I would *not* recommend.)

I was out Saturday night with three chicks...a 7, 8, and a 9...and I was basically treated like a celebrity (or a god) for the evening. Normally when I'm out with a hot chick, I will notice more women checking me out, etc. But this was unreal...people openly staring, women approaching our group and initiating conversations, men approaching me to shake my hand and ask us to come over and party with their group, etc. One guy even thought I was a pimp, and he approached me with his wallet open! These are reactions I got from everybody...my neighbors on my way out the door...people in line, club staff, people on the dance floor, people milling about, etc.

I think this social proof, and the amazing reactions I got, contributed heavily to my extremely powerful and confident state that evening, something worth anchoring for future use....

So...if being out with some hot chicks can give you amazing social proof and power, why bother bringing out a 5 or 6 in the first place? Why EVER do it? Also, I think it really could be negative...hot chicks see you with an UG and they place you in that box...."the guy who hangs with UGS." I say, if you want to play the social proof angle at all, do it properly.

One lady that approached our group was obviously trying to set up some group sex. It was so classic....first she approaches our group and gets in good with the girls. So they're referring to her as their "friend", etc. Then, about 20 minutes later, her man moves in. He's middle-aged, going bald, got a gut, all dressed in black. He's man-handling her a lot and getting in on the conversation. After 5 or 10 minutes of that, he takes off again and she starts filling in the girls on all his details...

Turns out they are up partying from Miami (I'm in New Orleans). He's "not her boyfriend"....why not? Because he's "not relationship material"...why not? Because he "is rude and treats her like shit." So why is she partying with him in New Orleans? Because he "has lots of pills" and he "has a huge dick...it's like a baseball bat...it makes me bleed...I was scared the first time I saw it but now I love it and I can't bring myself to give it up...someday I'll get a real boyfriend." Yeah right haa!! Contrast what she says she wants vs. what motivates her to fuck in the real world. He's not what she's programmed to think she should want (boyfriend material) but he IS what she actually responds to in the real world (treats her like shit and fucks her brains out.)

We didn't hook up with them (of course) but it's just funny how everyone suddenly wants a piece of the action and wants to shake my hand and sweet talk me, because I'm hanging with a couple chicks. Anyway, happy hunting.

Specialist: You're looking to work HBPet9. You're figuring to use social proof. Your question is whether you can pull it off with HBCookie7.5, or do you really need to be seen with HBPlaymate10? So, if you have HBCookie7.5 and HBPlaymate10 on tap, why aren't you sarging THEM? Could your REAL problem be (gasp) "one-itis"? SERIOUSLY, what the target chick is looking for in the social proof thing is whether the proof chick is having fun around you. AND I'll tell you something else. 7.5 vs 9.5 is more than covered by the difference made by a chick smiling and laughing and having fun. HBCookie7.5 obviously having a great time with a great guy, even if he isn't working her, will help your case with HBPet9 a lot more than HBPlaymate10 in tow and obviously not having that great a time. Oh, and what happens if some AMOG sees HBPlaymate10 not having a great time with this loser AFC, and decides to put in a little skills practice, with her as the target and you as the BF to be BF-destroyed?

Juggler: In general the more beautiful the girl the better. You may find that bringing a girl with you for social proof will not work as well as meeting girls there. A new girl will be much more interested and captivated by you.

Here is an example. I am talking with two very attractive girls. I take a break from them to turn around and speak with two other girls... maybe 5's. I do this all the time. Not part of a scheme. Just being outgoing with everybody. Well, these two non-attractive girls were pretty fun and I liked them immediately (not in a sexual way of course). Anyway, we are talking and my interrupts and tells me the two hot girls want to know something. I just put my finger up to tell him just a minute I am in a conversation here.

So eventually I turn back around and the first thing out of the hot girls on the left's mouth was to ask me if I am seeing anybody. Very bold sign of interest. So of course I gave her the girlfriend test. Thought about it later, there was probably alot going on in her mind. I was sort of demonstrating social proof with the unattractive girls while at the same time doing a neg hit on the hot girl and a take -away.....all that stuff that many guys here like to break down. But the point is, you do not have to figure it all out and force it to work for you. Just be outgoing and chat it up with many people and it will work for you unconsciously. This will leave you to concentrate on the important part of your game... being seductive.

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