Re: [DarwinsTavern] Six Things Christians Should Just Stop Saying

From: Aulton S.
Sent on: Wednesday, April 3, 2013 6:50 PM
"What I think is that the vast majority of folks are not honest even with their own thoughts, they are irrational, illogical, and uninformed about these issues."

You are on to something important here. Ever since I read Robert Ardrey's "Territorial Imperative", I have been convinced that the majority of Christians are merely paying lip service and, if they were honest with themselves, would have to admit they don't REALLY believe in all that old mythology. Ardrey's explanation of religion, as well as phenomena such as sports fandom, racism, and nationalism (jingoism) is that it is part of our inborn, EVOLVED tribalism. There have been genetic studies which suggest that a certain pair of genes is responsible for a lot of this. Some people have a stronger need to "fit in" than others, and they are the ones who are willing to compromise their rationality in order to be part of and identify as part of that larger group. The church is also the basis of most people's social networks. It's where they meet their mates, and find support for raising their children.

“Whoever ceases to be a student…has never been a student.”
George Iles

 

Aulton Craig Smith
1730 Cullom Street
Birmingham, Alabama 35205
(205)[masked]
[address removed]



--- On Wed, 4/3/13, Jim High <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Jim High <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [DarwinsTavern] Six Things Christians Should Just Stop Saying
To: [address removed]
Date: Wednesday, April 3, 2013, 8:48 AM

Chris Coffee's comment made me want to chime in on the belief in God/Atheism/Agnostic questions.
 
Here's the way I see it............
 
God - There is no evidence that any God as described in the Bible ever existed.  Gods are what ancient men dreamed up to answer their questions as they awoke to their existence in the Universe.
 
Atheist - They say no God exists.  Well, of course, they don't.  So what does?
 
Agnostic - These are folks who are on the fence or hedging their bet so to speak.  They say they just don't know, but unless their minds are a total blank, they do have an opinion, they just don't express it not wanting to upset either their God believer or  Atheist friends.
 
If you are honest, rational, logical, intelligent, and informed you are back to the question of what does exist.  What I think is that the vast majority of folks are not honest even with their own thoughts, they are irrational, illogical, and uninformed about these issues.  So they hold to their God/Atheist/Agnostic thinking when the truth is that Life does exist, we see it everywhere, and will find it all over the universe in many different forms.  So here is my thinking summed up in the statement below.
 

“The God of the Bible (Old and New Testament) is not dead. How could "He" be, because this invented God was never real, except in the minds of ancient people who were trying to explain their existence. But the God that is the Spirit of Life Itself everywhere present throughout the Universe, that connects all Life to all other Life, and that created and continues to create all that we know and have through the process of evolution, that's the real God. I rarely think about that old God, or even use the word God anymore, but I'll talk to you for hours about the Life Force of the Universe, which for me explains what other people call God.”

---Jim High - Tupelo, Mississippi



On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 8:23 AM, Chris Coffee <[address removed]> wrote:

This entire discussion about liberal Christians, internal consistency, cherry-picking, etc. completely misses the point. Christianity is neither a closed formula nor a set of conclusions on how to live, even if many approach/interpret it that way. It is the opposite, a starting point. It serves an utterly different purpose than science and one must not sacrifice any knowledge or ability to reason to adhere to both faith and science.

I usually hate it when people say "you just don't understand," but on what basis do you claim to understand
liberal Christianity? I've heard/argued/once believed most everything said so far, and have come to conclude that these arguments are as intellectually naive and emotionally dishonest as fundamentalism.

I've recently (and very privately) renounced atheism/agnosticism and have been having arguments with y'all in my head ever since. I can't go tonight, but want to have actual discussions with skeptical minds soon.

On Apr 3,[masked]:45 AM, "Steve Stroupe" <[address removed]> wrote:
Fundamentalists are the more intellectually honest of the two groups, although both groups fudge on doctrines and Bible teachings which they find too credulous and/or unpalatable. The fundies are currently stuck on homosexuality=abomination=sin=hellfire, but have been able to give up the belief in a flat earth and a geocentric universe, as two for instances.

"Liberal" Christians could be characterized as embryonic atheists, or atheists-in-training who haven’t made the complete metamorphic transition yet. Given the complete and embarrassing lack of a definitive hermeneutic used in formulating their cherry-picked beliefs, they will often come on over to the Dark Side at some point, because it's the logical thing to do. Fundies are acutely aware of this danger, which is why they stubbornly cling to absurd theological propositions...not because they find them so convincing, but because the alternative seems so terrifying to them...It's all about security...


-----Original Message-----
From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Wade
Sent: Tuesday, April 02,[masked]:06 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [DarwinsTavern] Six Things Christians Should Just Stop Saying

In SOME ways I do too.  But liberal Christans appreciate science and agree with me on social issues.  And in general I find them much more reasonable than fundies.


-----Original Message-----
From: Ellery Curtis <[address removed]>
To: darwinstavern-list <[address removed]>
Sent: Tue, Apr 2,[masked]:34 pm
Subject: Re: [DarwinsTavern] Six Things Christians Should Just Stop Saying




I think I have more in common with fundamentalists in some ways.

The fundi's search for internal consistency with their beliefs...they
struggle with it, but they strive for it.

If the bible cites homosexuality as a sin:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/gay/long.htm - then well, it is a sin
right?  For the fundi's the answer is clearly YES.

I have debated various liberal christians about their interpretation on
the gay issue....and I find their apologetics on the subject confusing
personally.  The bible in so many ways seems clear on that subject, in
both the old and new testaments.  The fact that Jesus said nothing
directly about it is not evidence.....

Another great example that comes to mind in the religion of my parents
is the apologetics of black mormons:

http://www.blacklds.org/mauss

The real conondrum is that previous mormon prophets have said racist
crap...that black folks could not hold the priesthood because their
lineage is cursed directly by god, per the scriptures (both old test.
and book of mormon).

So a prophet recieves such revelation on this subject....how do we
black mormons reconcile this uncomfortable history - that god was once
racist, but then in 1978 decided "meh, times change"?

Here is the answer:

"Obviously divine guidance does not depend upon historical context, but
it seems clear from history that some revelations have been received by
prophets in response to inquiries motivated by the surrounding social
and political environment."

So these black mormons are ok with the idea that prophets can formally
recieve "divine guidance" that is instead motivated not by god, but by
"surrounding social and political environments".....

The question then is, if you are ok with that....why believe any of
what they say is inspired by a deity?  Even If I accept that the bible
or a prophet is in parts true, other parts not....how the hell do these
people go about choosing which parts to find true and other parts
bullshit?

I suspect the way they determine this has everything to do with the
"surrounding social and political environments"

I just dont get moderates...as soon as I became a moderate it all fell
apart...the only way you can stay in that state is acceptance of
massive amounts of ambiguity, contradictions, and almost total lack of
logical consistency :D

--- On Tue, 4/2/13, Wade <[address removed]> wrote:


From: Wade <[address removed]>
Subject: [DarwinsTavern] Six Things Christians Should Just Stop Saying
To: [address removed]
Date: Tuesday, April 2, 2013, 8:31 AM



Hello primates!
Here's an interesting article from a liberal Christian perspective.  I
have alot in common with liberal Christians, and I think this article
highlights some of the common ground.  Note the "most and least
Christians cities" in the US at the bottom.  Birmingham (according to
these people) ranks 2nd in most Christian US cities with only Salt Lake
City ahead of us.  And there is a wide gap between The Ham and number
3.  But I have no idea about the accuracy of this list.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/steve-mcswain/6-things-christians-should-just-stop-saying_b_2767507.html#slide=[masked]
I hope to see you all on Friday!  So far we have a good number of
RSVP's.  Don't let the construction deter you.  You'll get to see the
new ballpark just a few days before it opens.
Cheers!
---Wade






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone
on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Wade ([address removed]) from Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Wade, visit his/her member profile
To unsubscribe from special announcements from your Organizer(s), click
here

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]







--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone
on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Ellery Curtis ([address removed]) from
Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Ellery Curtis, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email |
Don't send me mailing list messages

                Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/
This message was sent by Wade ([address removed]) from Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Wade, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/members/10328531/
Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=1

In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=0
Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]




--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/
This message was sent by Steve Stroupe ([address removed]) from Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Steve Stroupe, visit his/her member profile: http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/members/13966752/
Set my mailing list to email me

As they are sent
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=1

In one daily email
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=2

Don't send me mailing list messages
http://www.meetup.com/DarwinsTavern/list_prefs/?pref=0
Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]






--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Chris Coffee ([address removed]) from Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Chris Coffee, visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]





--
Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
This message was sent by Jim High ([address removed]) from Darwin's Tavern.
To learn more about Jim High , visit his/her member profile
Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email | Don't send me mailing list messages

Meetup, POB 4668 #37895 NY NY USA 10163 | [address removed]

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy