Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

From: Harry P.
Sent on: Monday, April 28, 2008 12:34 PM
I could not have said it better myself. I don't believe anyone would resign 
their job if single payer Universal Heath Insurance was adopted. There will 
always be people who are unable to take care of themselves, due to 
disability, age, illness, & the whole system has to be provided by the 
entire population.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tamara" <[address removed]>
To: <[address removed]>
Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:24 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'


> The flaw in this argument is that you are defining paying taxes as 
> stealing.
>
> I suppose you may feel that all taxes *are* stealing, but I think most
> reasonable people would view that perspective as ridiculous. They're not
> fun, but they do serve a purpose. Roads, police, fire departments, 
> national
> defense, school etc etc - are all paid for by your taxes.
>
> Do you think that unemployed and impoverished people who pay little to no
> taxes should have no access to those services? "911, What's your 
> emergency?
> There's someone invading your home and your child is being held at gun
> point? How much did you pay in taxes last year? Oh, I'm sorry. That's not
> enough. We can't send any police out to help you. Good bye."
>
> Also, the argument that health insurance is "OPTIONAL" is technically 
> true.
> In the same way that it is technically true  that we always have an option
> no matter the situation. Say someone is holding a gun to your head and
> telling you to give them all your money. Technically, you have the option 
> to
> say No, but the consequence is that you would be killed.
>
> Technically, we have the option of getting no health insurance. The
> consequence is that we run the risk that we will develop a devastating
> health condition that we can't pay for and so we either go bankrupt trying
> to pay for it out of pocket or we die. And then there are the people who
> have a chronic condition for which they can't afford to pay out of pocket.
> (And remember, there are genetic conditions, so not everyone can be 100% 
> to
> blame when they get ill.)
>
> AND I'd like to point out that not everyone who works has access to health
> insurance. I myself work in a position that is considered 
> "fee-for-service"
> and receives no benefits - including no health insurance option. The only
> reason I have insurance at all right now is because I am in grad school 
> and
> I am lucky enough that I can get it through them.
>
> Tamara
>
>
> On 4/28/08 9:32 AM, "Robin" <[address removed]> wrote:
>
>> Ok, I'm hearing all of these different emotional
>> arguments, but no one is addressing the true point
>> that John and I both made:
>>
>> It's wrong to steal, regardless of the motives.
>>
>> If you want to say that it's right to give to the
>> poor, and that it's wrong to be selfish, fine, just
>> say so.  That's what charities are for, not government
>> tax-funded institutions.
>>
>> Government-funded, "universal" health care is NOT the
>> same as private insurance.  I know that in private
>> insurance, everyone is paying for everyone else too,
>> but it's OPTIONAL!  That way the healthy people don't
>> HAVE to pay for the unhealthy people unless they want
>> to do it.  Forcing them to do it whether they want to
>> or not is the same as stealing.  "Give me your money
>> or I'll take it from you."
>>
>> So, is it wrong to steal?  And, if not, why is it
>> wrong to let people die from sicknesses?  I'm arguing
>> that there is right and wrong.
>>
>> Robin
>>
>> --- Ellen Morgan <[address removed]> wrote:
>>
>>> Face it---if you can work you will WORK---no one
>>> really really wants
>>> to get something for nothing---some people described
>>> as "lazy" were
>>> brought up in an unhealthy home & are mentally not
>>> able or easily
>>> able to make good decisions--they doubt their worth
>>> & can not
>>> function as efficiently as someone else--who maybe
>>> had  a healthy
>>> upbringing & was a loved child---maybe we could
>>> invest our time in
>>> helping less fortunate people to raise healthy
>>> kids----volunteer your
>>> time to inspire a child---& maybe that is a way to
>>> make a difference
>>> in the number of "lazy" people getting benefit from
>>> handouts.  Even
>>> if this logic is WRONG--the goal is GREAT & worth
>>> living!!  The
>>> assumption that people who claim to and who need
>>> help are lazy & made
>>> bad decisions so they should suffer the
>>> ramifications of their
>>> choices is such a stingy, selfish & blind point of
>>> view----
>>>
>>> We've all heard stories of people taking advantage
>>> of "the system"----
>>> we need to police the system & inspire people to
>>> make better
>>> choices---& invest in research about what makes one
>>> person more
>>> productive than another----at some level it's just a
>>> choice--at some
>>> level the choice is not so obvious & clear & easy.
>>>
>>> Of course the insurance circles would promote this
>>> propaganda----they
>>> are the ones that will loose if we have a universal
>>> health care
>>> system----they might be the only ones who will get
>>> hurt---
>>> Ellen Morgan
>>>
>>> On Apr 28, 2008, at 8:58 AM, Harry Pearson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Not even our government, running into endless debt
>>> for the Iraq
>>>> War, can provide "something for nothing". A single
>>> payer Universal
>>>> Health care will be paid for with TAXES!!  Sounds
>>> horrible but add
>>>> up how much you are paying for insurance - I have
>>> Medicare which is
>>>> deducted from my SSA & a Secondary insurance which
>>> is a rollover
>>>> from my empoyer when I retired which is $120 per
>>> month & I get
>>>> absolutely nothing for it except a discount on
>>> prescription drugs.
>>>> I have a relative who is between jobs & has to pay
>>> $464 per month
>>>> for something called COBRA. Check out the
>>> Canadian, English &
>>>> French systems (summarized in "Sicko") & the
>>> health care is better
>>>> (Why in Hell do we buy drugs from Canada??)
>>> cheaper & run much better.
>>>> Yeah, the ones who work pay the most. But look -
>>> the roads get
>>>> built & someone who pays no taxes (for whatever
>>> reason) gets to
>>>> drive their car on them for free.
>>>> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin"
>>>> <[address removed]>
>>>> To: <[address removed]>
>>>> Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:18 AM
>>>> Subject: RE: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care
>>> That Can Never Be
>>>> Taken Away'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>­ That is certainly always a big problem when you
>>>>>­ provide something for nothing.  Universal health
>>> care
>>>>>­ would "supposedly" be payed for by everyone, but
>>> it
>>>>>­ would end up being payed for only by those who
>>> worked.
>>>>>­ And a lot of those who currently work to maintain
>>>>>­ their health care would stop working if they knew
>>> that
>>>>>­ they were just going to get it for free,
>>> regardless of
>>>>>­ whether they worked or not.  This is the
>>> beginning of
>>>>>­ what is called "the death spiral" in insurance
>>>>>­ circles:
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 1.  Some people stop working because they'll get
>>>>>­ coverage whether they work for it or not.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 2.  Remaining people have to work more to pay for
>>>>>­ themselves and those not working.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 3.  Some of these people decide that it's not
>>> worth
>>>>>­ all the extra work, so they stop working too.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 4.  Remainder of working people have to work even
>>>>>­ harder.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 5.  More people drop out.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ 6.  Eventually, whole system falls apart, and
>>> nobody
>>>>>­ has any coverage at all.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ Let everyone experience the fruit of their own
>>> labor,
>>>>>­ and let these people give some of their own
>>>>>­ hard-earned wealth to charities for those who
>>> cannot
>>>>>­ work, if they want to do so.  Stealing from the
>>> rich
>>>>>­ (or moderately well-off) to give to the poor (or
>>> lazy)
>>>>>­ is still stealing.  Even if the rich have money
>>> to
>>>>>­ burn, that doesn't give you the right to steal it
>>> from
>>>>>­ them.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ And just to clarify, I'm nowhere even NEAR being
>>> rich
>>>>>­ personally; I just agree with John that there is
>>> still
>>>>>­ right and wrong.  But if you disagree with me
>>> about
>>>>>­ that, then why do you care about the people who
>>> are
>>>>>­ dying from lack of health coverage; just let 'em
>>> die
>>>>>­ and shout "Survival of the fittest!"  Take your
>>> pick.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ - Robin
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ --- TainaAtheist <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ --------------------­-------------
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ I wonder if ourrepresentatives don?t provide
>>> universal
>>>>>­ health care coverage in part because ofthe
>>> potential
>>>>>­ for the ?lottery? affect. The ?lottery? affect
>>> occurs
>>>>>­ when someone quits their job without noticeas a
>>> result
>>>>>­ of a significant win or benefit improvement.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ Darhlene
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ From:
>>>>>­
>>> [address removed][mailto:athe­ists-36-
>>>>>­ [address removed]]
>>>>>­ On Behalf Of Orlando Jack
>>>>>­ Sent: Friday, April 25,[masked]:18 AM
>>>>>­ To: [address removed]
>>>>>­ Subject: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That
>>> Can
>>>>>­ Never Be Taken Away'
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ I realize this doesn't fit in our Freethought
>>> site,
>>>>>­ but Icouldn't help myself after I saw this short
>>> video
>>>>>­ clip. Here's a grassrootsmovement that may
>>> inspire
>>>>>­ many of our members 'to take action' who are tied
>>>>>­ totheir jobs mostly because of their 'health'
>>> care
>>>>>­ benefits.
>>>>>­
>>>>>­ ENJOY!
>>>>>­
>>>>>­
>>>
>> http://www.standt...­
>>>
>> === message truncated ===
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>> This message was sent by Robin ([address removed]) from Orlando
>> Atheists &  Freethinkers.
>> To learn more about Robin, visit his/her member profile:
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>
>
>
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> This message was sent by Tamara ([address removed]) from Orlando 
> Atheists &  Freethinkers.
> To learn more about Tamara, visit his/her member profile: 
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