Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

From: John C.
Sent on: Monday, April 28, 2008 11:04 PM
Societies don't have rights. Governments don't have rights. These are abstract entities. Rights inhere in individuals. Governments have powers. That's what makes it scary.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Larry" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, April 28,[masked]:08:12 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'


I don't accept your logic that taxes or mandatory insurance premiums are "stealing."

Societies have a right to assess payments of various kinds to handle infrastructure and social needs.  There is a reason all societies do this.  They cannot function without it.  The recent John Adams series on HBO showed some of how our country dealt with these issues at its founding. 

Why don't libertarian pipe dreams ever work?  One reason is that the free-enterprise captains of industry can't resist creating and expanding governments and using them to further their profits at the expense of the public good.  Then there is a backlash, where even many corporate leaders support programs benefiting the society even if it costs them some profits.  They may agree to this out of the kindness of their hearts, but often it is to avoid having the cruelest of systems, like the one you espouse, because they are in more danger of being violently overthrown.

Some of you seem completely ignorant of history, especially that of the labor movement.  Don't you know many people died fighting for a 40-hour work week, safety on the job, vacations with pay, and employer-supported health insurance?

And if one of your compatriots on this list wants to continue his contemptuous red-baiting in some juvenile crusade to bring the "socialists" out of the closet, I say bring it on.

Larry Rosen

At 09:32 AM Monday 4/28/2008, Robin wrote:
Ok, I'm hearing all of these different emotional
arguments, but no one is addressing the true point
that John and I both made:

It's wrong to steal, regardless of the motives.

If you want to say that it's right to give to the
poor, and that it's wrong to be selfish, fine, just
say so.  That's what charities are for, not government
tax-funded institutions.

Government-funded, "universal" health care is NOT the
same as private insurance.  I know that in private
insurance, everyone is paying for everyone else too,
but it's OPTIONAL!  That way the healthy people don't
HAVE to pay for the unhealthy people unless they want
to do it.  Forcing them to do it whether they want to
or not is the same as stealing.  "Give me your money
or I'll take it from you."

So, is it wrong to steal?  And, if not, why is it
wrong to let people die from sicknesses?  I'm arguing
that there is right and wrong.


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