Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

From: John C.
Sent on: Wednesday, April 30, 2008 6:03 PM
I would not prefer a VAT. Taxation is theft, no matter who the go-between thief is: your employer, or your supermarket.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robban" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, April 30,[masked]:20:07 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
Subject: RE: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

Bing,
 
I certainly appreciate the site as I have often wondered exactly what is meant by the "Fair Tax". At this point I am neither for nor against it but do have some questions.  Perhaps you or someone else knows....?
 
From the link I see that the tax on income is replaced by a sales tax. I Europe we call this a value added tax VAT. In the example given one who has an income of $125 today pays $25 and has $100 to spend. In the Fair Tax one keeps the $125 and if one buys goods for $100 there is a $25 added tax. In both cases you have as little money left and the Government has gotten its $25.  I hope I have not misunderstood.
 
What I DON'T see is the difference for someone like John who is up in arms about income taxes. How is this system better except possibly for the fact that one does not have to declare an income. On the other hand someone must report, handle and administer the taxes collected. Problem in this case the business which has sold the goods.
 
There are at least two major problems with a VAT. I have experienced them both in that I have lived in societies with 20-25% taxes on consumption. The first is that there can easily grow a Black Market of goods (and services if those are also taxed) where the tax is not paid in.  The consumer gladly seeks these instances in that he is getting tax free goods and gets to keep $25 for further consumption.
 
Also those who can move their consumption outside the boarders of the USA would not be paying this tax on consumption. Those who couldn't afford to go somewhere else to spend pay on all taxed consumption.
 
Where such taxes are applied have several nations excluded the consumption of necessities - mainly food - from the tax. After all the Rich and the Poor consume approximately the same amount of grub.
 
Businesses in countries with the VAT system often complain that they are put into the position of being tax collectors, having to handle and administer these funds, a job which should be the business of government employees, it is argued. I as a vendor should be putting my time into selling my wares, not bookkeeping for the government for no wage.
 
So, considering this, where am I wrong?  What am I missing in this description?  how can it be tweaked?   And, lastly, why would John and Robin be happier to pay their $25 in this matter rather than in the form of $25 in Income tax?
 
I don't mean this as an argument against the proposal. I just don't get it and would simply like to know more before I pass personal judgment on this issue.
 
/Robban
 
P.S.  Those that do not want to see these issues debated can do as Jack once suggested  to receive only group messages and not further debate. 
 
"Go to our 'home' page and at the top right click on the blue 'account' hyperlink then open the 'Membership & Communications' folder and under our site choose 'Not At All.' "
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Bing
Sent: Tuesday, April 29,[masked]:35 PM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

John, here is another workable alternative to the confiscatory tax system we now have. It is called the Fair Tax Amendment, and I believe it is certainly a step in the right direction.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

John Conolley <[address removed]> wrote:
It's probably true that a government the size of the one we have can only be financed by forced taxation. But one suggestion, supposing the size of the government could be massively reduced, was to make it law that contracts were only enforceable in court if you had registered the contract and paid a fee. You would be free to enter into a contract without paying a fee, but you're on your own in case of abrogation. This would provide a considerable income to the government, and would be entirely voluntary.

For another idea, try this link: http://rous.redbarn.org/objectivism/writing/PeterSaintAndre/VoluntaryGovFinancing.html
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin"
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, April 29,[masked]:03:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Video: 'Health Care That Can Never Be Taken Away'

I don't believe that all taxes are theft. I believe
specifically that income taxes and land taxes are
theft. Income taxes are a fundamentally communist
idea which says that you have no right to the fruit of
your labor; it belongs to the government, just as you
yourself seem to. (You're just working for them,
after all, if they get paid for your labor. Isn't
that the same as slavery?) Income taxes didn't exist
in the USA until fairly recently. Land taxes say that
the land all really belongs to the government; we're
just paying rent, and they'll take it from us if we
stop paying. These are the two with which I disagree
most strongly.

As far as other ways, it has been shown that an
efficiently run government can subsist on (reasonable)
import/export taxes. I know you'll say, "Who's ever
heard of an efficiently run government?" And I agree.
So add a few (also reasonable) sales taxes.

Anyway, I know that this is way off the original
topic, but you're right in saying that a lot of the
argument comes back to definitions.

- Robin

Disclaimer: I'm not saying we're slaves to the
government (though if you want to argue that we are,
I'll debate that another time). I'm not a radical who
wants to overthrow the government (even though I think
that this one really needs a good overhaul).

--- Tamara wrote:

> Really? Really?! You're sticking with the argument
> that taxation is theft.
> Well that certainly is an extreme perspective.
>
> Honestly, such an extreme perspective brings those
> alarming anti-government
> militias to mind.
>
> At this point, it sounds like your problem with
> Universal Health Care is
> really a problem with taxation in general.
>
> We all reap benefits from living in a structured
> society. We pay for those
> benefits with tax dollars. I won't claim that
> everything the government pays
> for is something I want (the Iraq War comes to
> mind), but this is the
> downside to living in such a large society. Not
> everyone is going to be
> happy all the time with everything they do. In the
> meantime we do get things
> I'd rather not go without, like schools, roads, fire
> departments, etc etc.
>
> I'm interested to hear these other ideas to finance
> a government. I'm sure
> other ideas exist. But are they *good* ideas? That's
> the question.
>
> Tamara
>
>
>
> On 4/28/08 11:09 PM, "John Conolley"
> wrote:
>
> > I don't see how you can deny that taxation is
> theft. Your hard earned money is
> > taken away from you by people you don't know at
> the point of a gun. That's
> > theft. (Don't believe the point of a gun thing?
> Try not paying your taxes. One
> > farmer in Pennsylvania had sixteen men armed with
> M-16's enter his home and
> > seize everything, including the tools of his
> trade, to pay back taxes.) And
> > just because taxation is the only way you've ever
> heard of to finance a
> > government doesn't mean it's the only way. There
> are other ideas out there.
>
>
>
>
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