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Re: [atheists-36] UU's

From: jj
Sent on: Saturday, August 2, 2008 1:49 PM
I don't live in Orlando so this really isn't my fight but I do have mixed feelings about this issue. On the one hand i do feel that promoting Church events on an Atheists message board is crossing a line that should not be crossed. This is an Atheists site and that should be respected and not used to promote the events of a religious organization.
  I also feel that it is important for Atheists to nurture ties with groups that are not part of the religious mainstream. We often have common positions on matters of church and state.
   I think that the relationship between Atheist groups a UU has more to do with a general Left leaning political orientation and that too is a problem to me. I hold political views that are both Liberal, Conservative and all parts in between, but I don't think Atheism should be associated with any particular political orientation on issues that do not directly relate to religion/Atheism.
  I know it would be unacceptable for Baptists or Buddhists to announce their events and activities on an Atheist site and I don't think there needs to be an exception for UU. Buddhists are often Atheists too.
  I think that our identity as Atheists( people who don't believe in gods) should be respected. If UU's eccepts Atheists in their church that is fine but people are always trying to assoiate Atheism with many things, political and reigious, that tend to cloud the issue and you will often find those who identify themselves as Atheist when, in fact, they are not. I know we need friends but this place is ours.    

On Sat, Aug 2, 2008 at 9:04 AM, Advocate <[address removed]> wrote:
i think i speak for most atheists and most UUs as well. we do care about and support what we believe in. part of that is that church itself isn't a problem, it's what's done with it. blame the trigger-puller, not the weapon. in fact it's impossible to separate human beings and their dna from the desire to have answers to unanswerable questions, thus church Will always exist, but more importantly there are psychological benefits to this thing which exist without regard to dogma. while i agree that they are USUALLY negatives, in this case they are usually NOT. that's what makes it so remarkable. how many atheists now have said they like, or attend a UU "church"? just on this board! just from one city! just the ones who already knew about it! think about it. anyway, the UU is obviously not all the things you hate so much, please realize that. if it were even a touch like that, NONE of us would consider going but for a lark, nostalgia or sedition. the reasons we atheist UUs do go are all positive things which yes, even you, would agree with if someone somewhere along the way hadn't wrecked you to christianity so badly that if something uses the same letters of the alphabet in it's spelling you despise it. not that that's wrong :P my original sales pitch was for the type of people who go there, and against the total disregard we have for them in ordinary life. my sales pitch was to find and respect those people before they're made martyrs of. to give them proper say and sway in this world so that these kind of problem can be stopped before they start.

2008/8/2 Justin B <[address removed]>
If you don't care about, and support what you believe in, what's the point in having beliefs? I am an Atheist! I believe in the truth, and that's what I support. I never made the claim that people attending churches weren't good people, just highly misguided. Any promotion of the words Bible, God, Jesus, Church, Christianity, etc. are NEGATIVES in our world, regardless of what type of church it comes from. I don't care if you choose to attend a church (or UU society), but I still think that the original message was out of place and shouldn't have been sent across an Atheist message board. It was sent across as a 'sales pitch' for the UU, but we aren't misguided, and most don't need a false religion to make us feel whole. I don't have a problem with the UU, but go get members from somewhere else, and quit trying to get Atheists into church!

This is an Atheist and Freethinkers group, not an open market to tap into for your church!


----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry" <[address removed]>
To: <[address removed]>
Sent: Friday, August 01,[masked]:59 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] UU's


Justin, UU groups are there for people who want what they offer, just like any other group.  For some it's religion, for some it's a fellowship of people journeying through life together, with births, deaths, etc., and ceremonies that go with them.  Most atheists interact with believers all day at work and everywhere else.  If some atheists are comfortable being in an interesting and/or caring group with believers of various stripes, what do you care?

Personally, I have very little tolerance for any kind of ritual and, having grown up Jewish, a real aversion to going to a "church."  I know that the University UU Society (on McCulloch Rd. near UCF) does not call itself a church but that's what some of its members call it.  They do have some very interesting speakers on Sundays and a lot of good people.

Larry Rosen

---- Justin B <[address removed]> wrote:
So, what you're saying is they don't stand behind what they believe, and they just go with the flow? Isn't it better to support an Atheist group solidified in truth and reason, rather than a church that doesn't know what going on? Apparently, if they think they know what's going on, they don't preach it? I think it's great that they get involved with civil rights, etc, but regular old Baptist churches do the same thing, what's so special about the UU's? It's just another church, allowing people to accept a lie, and live their life with blinders on.
 ----- Original Message -----  From: Advocate
 To: [address removed]
 Sent: Friday, August 01,[masked]:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [atheists-36] UU's


 unitarian started out meaning one god, no trinity, UU is a very different thing today


 2008/8/1 Harry Pearson <[address removed]>

   Hold on, I attend a Unitarian/Universalist Church. All it means is they believe in a single God, not a Trinity. The various churches in different parts of the country range from very structured with Ministers to "Fellowships" which have invited guest speakers each week. UU has been very active in civil rights, school desegregation & other liberal activities. The membership ranges from very strict believers to outright atheists like me. Funding is by donation & we never promote the religion. By & large, people change to UU because they are not satisfied with the strict conformance of the Catholic Church & Jewish Faith & the Social Clubs that the Protestants have become.
   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin" <[address removed]>

   To: <[address removed]>

   Sent: Friday, August 01,[masked]:40 PM

   Subject: Re: [atheists-36] UU's



     I'm not "sounding off" against them any more than I would against any other religion.  It's just that I do consider them to be a religion. Maybe they're one that holds their congregates very loosely; it sounds like they do.  From your description and from Advocate's, it sounds like they are trying to be just a social club.  That's great.  I still don't understand why, in that case, they choose to call themselves a church. Given their system of doctrine (which Advocate kindly supplied), they do sound like a religion, albeit a very mild one.  If people want to be a part of that, then that's fine with me.  What offended me in the beginning was that the first e-mail about them felt very much like an attempt to proselytize.

     I am curious now, and please don't take this as an attack.  How do they fund themselves?  Do they collect "tithes"?  And do they proselytize?  Do they "preach" their system of beliefs, or is it just there for whoever wants to read it?

     Robin


     --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Hector <[address removed]> wrote:


       From: Hector <[address removed]>
       Subject: Re: [atheists-36] UU's
       To: [address removed]
       Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 11:38 AM
       Wow. I feel a little bit of harshness from the atheists
       towards the UU.
       I am an atheist, and I am also a UU. It happened virtually
       by accident.
       A friend from another atheist meetup group I attend asked
       me to go
       with him to what he thought was a Wednesday night service
       at a local
       UU church. He apparently had encountered someone after a
       Sunday
       service who had dissed him a bit for being an atheist, and
       he wanted
       to sound off against them. Turns out it wasn't a
       service, but a SHAAG
       meeting. SHAAG stands for Secular Humanists Agnostics and
       Atheists
       Group. It is a group that picks a subject every other week
       to discuss
       in depth. I left there buzzing with excitement! These
       people were
       intelligent, articulate, and a lot of them made me almost
       feel dumb
       with their sheer knowledge of various subjects. What other
       church or
       congregation holds atheist meetings, Wiccan rituals,
       Buddhist
       meditation sessions, green groups, etc.?   I can't
       think of one.
       After that night, I decided to give their Sunday services a
       shot. That
       was back in December of last year, and I have attended
       regularly
       since. I have met many wonderful people that have never for
       one second
       judged me for being an atheist. (As a side note, I also met
       my now
       girlfriend - a Pagan).
       In short, my point is, that until you experience something
       for
       yourself, it is better to hold back a bit in your judgment.
       There are
       instances where you can make a judgment without actually
       attending in
       person - the Westboro Baptists and their horribly hateful
       manifestations come to mind. But, otherwise it is best to
       try to give
       things a calm shot before sounding off.
       Sorry if I sound preachy or something. But I would never
       trade the
       experiences I have had at my UU church. I feel that I am a
       better
       person now, and I have gained insights that I would not
       have
       otherwise.

       -Hector

       On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Advocate
       <[address removed]> wrote:
       > not to evangelize them or anything but i would be
       playing devil's "advocate"
       > in any case. they are in large part a social club
       aligned along humanist
       > principles. it so happens that there is often debate
       about, and many
       > congregations call themselves just that, a
       congregation. Right in that
       > instance would be defined by me as stopping harm. Sure
       you may find machismo
       > in any church but only there was it done peacefully
       with full
       > conscientiousness and only there is there no leftover
       bullshit when the act
       > is over. what those particular people believe i
       couldn't say, it's different
       > for everyone since there is no dogma. their "7
       principles" are: (officially)
       >
       > The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
       > Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
       > Acceptance of one another and encouragement to
       spiritual growth in our
       > congregations;
       > A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
       > The right of conscience and the use of the democratic
       process within our
       > congregations and in society at large;
       > The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and
       justice for all;
       > Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of
       which we are a part.
       >
       > however, i don't believe all of them, nor to most
       of the members i hang
       > with. we're still just as welcome.
       >
       > 2008/8/1 Robin <[address removed]>
       >>
       >> So what's the point of their existence?  Are
       they just a social club?
       >>  And, if so, why do they call themselves a church?
        How do they define Right
       >> (as you referenced it in your last e-mail)?  How
       do they define wrong?
       >>
       >> Robin
       >>
       >> --- On Fri, 8/1/08, Advocate
       <[address removed]> wrote:
       >>
       >> > From: Advocate <[address removed]>
       >> > Subject: Re: [atheists-36] UU's
       >> > To: [address removed]
       >> > Date: Friday, August 1, 2008, 9:57 AM
       >> > Jesus Christ!... pardon the expression. Ok,
       let me clarify.
       >> > UU has a great
       >> > deal of non-superstitious people, perhaps
       nearly as much
       >> > Atheist, Agnostic,
       >> > Freethinker, Bright, Humanist, Secular
       Humanist, etc
       >> > membership as you'd
       >> > find at an atheist convention, such as the
       orlando
       >> > freethinker group. there
       >> > is no superstition amongst a goodly
       percentage of it's
       >> > membership and there
       >> > is none required for membership or in
       it's tenets. the
       >> > entire point of my
       >> > post is that this Open-Mindedness (free
       thought if you
       >> > will) leads to people
       >> > being utterly logical and reasonable when it
       counts most.
       >> > if you got
       >> > anything other than that you're looking
       to fight where
       >> > there's no fight to
       >> > be had.
       >>
       >>
       >>
       >>
       >>
       >>
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       --        "Either a belief stands on reason, or it does not
       stand at all." -
       George H. Smith



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