Re: Response: Mr. Pooky, relax, you're not "confused"; the OFH group IS about free thought.Re: [atheists-36] Re: great news

From: Death P.
Sent on: Saturday, March 2, 2013 12:58 AM

   Thank you for taking the time to clarify the nature of the organization for me.  I do feel you set up the majority of your response on a strawman ("strawperson"?) argument that this was about feminism (and that to be a good humanist, one would necessarily need to be a good feminist).  I confess that my original reply just happened to be to the posting on feminism, but could have just as easily been to any of the naturalist was just the one I had open at the time.    It is extremely amusing that you took that as the offense: I'm happily married and have been for many many years.  My wife and I (both on our first...and at this point very likely our only marriages) have always been equal partners, including in house care, cleaning, child rearing, grocery shopping, yard work, and so on.  She and I have always had similar incomes in different fields and I'm frequently the nurturing parent through scrapes and emotional trauma for my boys, misoginism need not apply.  We argue, we disagree, but we have never had violence at our house.  We consult each other on decisions and listen to what the other has to say.  We are equal partners.  I failed to see the need to preach the message to me about feminism.  I was just as devastated and angry to hear what had happened to Malala Yousafzai as you.

  I will admit that my own "holistic" approach is to go for the source of an issue...the religions which put subjugation in print eons ago of women, men, children, Jews, Muslims. Gentiles, blacks, gays, apostates...anyone that is not "them".

As for humanism, I am concerned for our future.  We must be the solution but we cannot deny that we ARE the problem.  To put it indelicately: we are pooping in our own nest.  Consumption of limited resources with little regard for the damage done or what will be left for our grandchildren, uncontrolled population growth with very few people seeming to be concerned that we may well be beyond the tipping point of disaster.  All while the religious look for some end time event to save us from freefall, say that nothing bad can happen because god will protect us, or repeat scriptures that the earth and animals are ours to be used as we see fit with "no thought for the morrow".

 Holistically there is the need to try and stop the madness of belief in primitive books made by people trying to talk to the weather.  Without this battle won through education and rational thought by everyone, the other battles cannot be won, or whose victory celebrations will be short lived.

I feel we lose sight of the purpose of the group... We see the forest by trying to point out every tree.  If we spend our time naming each tree while the entire forest is burning then we have lost our vision and our chance to do anything about the fire until it is much too late.

On a side note: I use an alias by necessity at this time.  Internet name searches reveal too much about people already.  My outing as an atheist/free thinker/skeptic is coming this year when it is appropriate.  I think you are trying too hard to find an agenda in the name "Death Pooky".  It is nothing more than a silly contradiction I found amusing (which is all that really matters).  It's taking the cuddly of Garfield's stuffed bear and adding a sinister tone.  I will admit it is something in all of us: fierce and friendly, comforting and threatening.  Maybe it's just me.  I also find children wearing pink Darth Vader costumes adorable...and scary.

Death Pooky

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 1, 2013, at 8:39 PM, Norma Jeane Young <[address removed]> wrote:

Mr. Pooky, relax, you're not "confused"; the OFH group IS about free thought.  One can take a very narrow definition or approach to that concept -- or a broader, more holistic/whole-istic approach.  I generally take the latter--because the idea that we're "all connected" and that the challenges facing us in the world are "all connected" too is one that is Pro Quality-of-Life oriented -- Quality of Life for Humans--& all other living creatures--in the world.  The mechanistic, reductionist, narrow view/definition of humanism I equate with the narrowness of many fundamentalist religions, one sect of which I grew up in & was educated in through college.  Therefore; I can recognize the same trait in other types of organizations (including our own OFH group) in modes of thinking represented.
Regarding your concern that feminism is not related to humanism; let me state from my extensive background as a veteran feminist from the early '70's on & as a simultaneous Human Potential Movement activist (of which the humanist movement is a part); that it is pretty accepted fact that one cannot be a Real humanist without also being a feminist.  The two words go hand in hand or hand in glove.  Two sides of the same coin. 
Feminists are concerned with freedom of Choice to be the best individual they can be.  And so are humanists.  Feminists are very outspoken -- (including myself, if you research some of my earlier posts when I joined OFH two years ago and introduced myself via some personal testimonials regarding my ongoing recovery from the forced religion of my childhood-college)-- about the harmful effects of theism on women--in fact; making the feminist movement Necessary -- because "God" has been used worldwide for milleniums as a basis for subjugating women.  
Violence toward women is a key foundational threat undermining women's progress toward equality in the world, freedom Of choice and achieving their full potentials.  Thus, my posting the "Great News" about the passage of the Violence Against Women Act was ON TOPIC to the purposes of this OFH group & Mailing List. 
Also; please note that Feminist icon Gloria Steinem was named Humanist of the Year in 2012. (See my post on December 3, 2012 at the end of this reply to you.) 
And Florida's own Jennifer (Jen) Hancock, who has been a guest speaker at the OFH group, has among her humanist education topics the subject of bullying (violence), which antidotes she speaks about in her guest appearances during which she introduces the book she's written about bullying, "the bully vaccine." I'm including at the end of the response to you the email from her which another OFH member forwarded to me -- which I didn't forward to the OFH Mailing List, because I thought most OFH members already got it individually.
Mr. Pooky, since you objected in the last paragraph of your post to people who "forward emails without adding personal context or additional relevant information" -- I hope this has been sufficient personal & relevant information to remove me from the "special level" of "hell" you hope would exist for me if hell was real. (lol?)
To understand more fully why feminism & violence against women is "On Topic" for a humanism website, I suggest you go to postings from the American Humanist Assn. itself, most recently one by its executive director, Roy Speckhardt, that was sent to all the OFH members and contains an excellent article on Rape, written by Mr. Speckhardt. His article came out at the height of the insane comments by extremist-fundamentalist religious Republican candidates during this past November election (see my post on this mailing list from Monday, December 3,[masked]:29 AM forwarding the article by Speckhardt): "God's Plan for Rape Victims" by Roy Speckhardt of the American Humanist Assn. (included herein at the end of my response to you).
This concludes my response to your email, Mr. Pooky.  I hope that after you have finished reading the "Whole" of  this thread that you will feel less "confused" about the relationship between humanism and feminism and the "On-Topicness" of both to this OFH site Mailing List. 
By the way (BTW), you give your first "name" as "Death."  I'm curious:  Is that your legal, given name, your chosen name, a nickname or a "Statement" of  some sort About Death?  I consider myself to be Pro Life (not as the anti-abortionists, religious fundamentalists define it) -- but Pro LIFE in the sense that I am in favor of all theories & practices that promote the QUALITY OF LIFE for ALL INDIVIDUALS ON THIS PLANET!  (Which, by necessity requires Freedom of Choice.)  Therefore; I am Pro CHOICE in feminist terms about the abortion issue.  Are you Pro-Death or Pro Life? (in the religious fundamentalist sense -- or in the feminist sense?)  -- as well as in the general sense of Pro LIFE! -- as in "Live Life to the Fullest!"(?)
BTW, also, I concur with Mikey Cooper who responded to you earlier today, "Hope that helps!"
--Norma J. Young

"God's Plan for Rape Victims" by Roy Speckhardt of the American Humanist Assn.

From: Norma Jeane Young
Sent on: Monday, December 3,[masked]:29 AM

A Humanist View

God's Plan for Rape Victims

Christian conservatives are either ignorant of the pluralistic society in which we live, or they simply disrespect others as they aim to make their way the only way.
By Roy Speckhardt, November 04, 2012
Women's rights have already played a big role in the 2012 elections, and rightly so. More than half of our nation's citizens are women, and it's about time that government officials give proper attention to the largest traditionally marginalized group. Unfortunately, not all the attention is positive, or even supportive. Shockingly, after all these years, essential human rights, like autonomy over one's own body, are actually up for debate this election season.
The latest attack on women's rights comes from the movement's longtime nemesis, the Religious Right. Christian conservatives have made numerous offensive statements regarding rape and the right of the victim to end an unwanted pregnancy. For example, Indiana's treasurer and Senate candidate Richard Mourdock said recently that pregnancy from rape is "something God intended" as if that's somehow an appropriate and sufficient reason for not exempting rape victims from a complete abortion ban.
Where do religious fundamentalists get the justification for such extreme ideas? They believe it because the Bible tells them so. While millions of mainstream religious Americans reject the literal truth of the Bible (as if there's only one version anyway), there are also millions of biblical literalists who don't exactly have good foundational material when it comes to rape and what place women should hold in society. This is evidenced by Deuteronomy 22:28-29, "If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives"; by Deuteronomy 22:23-24 (which describes a rape victim who doesn't call out during the assault and must be killed in the town center); by Colossians 3:18 "Wives, be subordinate to your husbands, as it is fitting in the Lord"; and by 1 Timothy 2:12 "A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be silent."
What Mr. Mourdock and his fellow Christian conservatives fail to take into consideration is that they represent a relatively small segment of the population. Many religious Americans, such as Jews, Hindus, and progressive Christians, don't necessarily believe that God intended victims to be raped, and may not believe that God wants them to bring unwanted children into our overpopulated world. And if mainstream religious are being misrepresented by the far right, the values of nonreligious Americans, who now make up to 20 percent of the U.S. population, are being even more marginalized, as the Religious Right attempts to coerce all of us into participating in a divine plan that we don't even believe in.
Christian conservatives are either ignorant of the pluralistic society in which we live, or they are demonstrating their disrespect for others as they aim to make their way the only way. Of course, Americans come from a wide variety of backgrounds and maintain a range of religious belief, including no theistic beliefs at all. The laws being sought, including the banning of abortion with no exception for rape or incest, fail to take into account the very diversity that makes this nation so great. Laws apply to everyone equally, which is why they must be designed with the interests of all members of society. That's why a particular sectarian belief system isn't a good foundation for legislation.
Christians who believe that pregnancy resulting from rape is a gift from God are perfectly within their rights to think that, and the women who adhere to such beliefs are perfectly within their right to continue with their pregnancy. Most Americans would agree with this because they recognize that an individual's religious beliefs and personal autonomy over their own body are important freedoms that must be protected in a democracy. At the same time, most Americans would also agree that those who wish to end an unwanted pregnancy should be able to do so, and that the religious beliefs of others shouldn't stand in the way of such a decision.
As a country, we must remember that the toleration of a wide variety of political and religious beliefs is essential for maintaining national harmony, and we must remind our representatives in government of this need for toleration if they forget it.
Roy SpeckhardtRoy Speckhardt is the Executive Director of the American Humanist Association. He is also a board member of the organization providing Humanists leadership training, the Humanist Institute, and an advisory board member of Secular Student Alliance. Follow him at
Speckhardt's column, "A Humanist View," is published every other Monday. Subscribe via email or RSS.

RE-SEND: " 2012 HUMANIST OF THE YEAR" FEMINIST ICON GLORIA STEINEM (Reminder) & RE-send of my "Preparatory," Introductory essay: "Live & HELP Live": My Original Essay I feel Passionate about & Proud of --just now wrote--catalyzed by the email below I j

From: Norma Jeane Young
Sent on: Monday, December 3,[masked]:49 AM

(Just a Reminder: Feminism & Humanism are "Hand in Glove." Read recent Humanist News articles promoting "igniting Feminism Within Humanism.")

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Norma Young <[address removed]>
Sent: Monday, October 15,[masked]:21 PM
Subject: "HUMANIST OF THE YEAR" GLORIA STEINEM (Reminder) & RE-send of my "Preparatory," Introductory essay: "Live & HELP Live": My Original Essay I feel Passionate about & Proud of --just now wrote--catalyzed by the email below I just got . . .NEWS FLASH! FEMINIST ICON GLORIA STEINEM, 2012 HUMANIST OF THE YEAR TO SPEAK AT UCF OCT. 19th from 11:30 A. M. - 2:00 P. M.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Norma Young <[address removed]>
Sent: Sunday, October 7,[masked]:02 PM
Subject: "Live & HELP Live": My Original Essay I feel Passionate about & Proud of --just now wrote--catalyzed by the email below I just got . . .NEWS FLASH! FEMINIST ICON GLORIA STEINEM, 2012 HUMANIST OF THE YEAR TO SPEAK AT UCF OCT. 19th from 11:30 A. M. - 2:00 P. M.

I saw Gloria Steinem in person (lst time was in Chattanooga, TN in 1972) & got her autograph a year ago when she spoke during the weekend-long conference at Rollins College celebrating Veteran Feminists of America (of which I am one). Went to the Awards Banquet where I was able to see her "up close & personal." She is the equivalent, in our time, I and many others believe of the pioneering Suffragette who led women to gain the vote in the U. S. in 1920 -- Susan B. Anthony.

We have not "arrived" to where we can "rest on our 'laurels' as long as there are millions of young girls (as young as 8-9) who are being forced to undergo "female circumcision" [Female Genital Mutilation as horrifically-extreme examples of ignorant male-begun tradition as extreme torture to try to control women's sexuality -- & women themselves -- thus affecting the Quality of Life of the Whole World!]

PBS had a 2-hr. special I saw last wk. with famed N. Y. Times "intrepid reporter" Nicholas Kristof, along with celebrities Diane Lane & America Ferrara who visited the countries -- (under the auspices of Half the Sky, a Movement supported & sanctioned by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, United Nations, etc. -- that builds on the (American Indian-origined, I believe) principle that "Women Hold Up Half the Sky") -- & interviewed the people involved.

FGM kills or maims millions of girls & young women; is the major cause of difficulty & death in childbirth--AND deprives the women of any pleasure in sexual relations. The documentary also covered the also-horrific practice of prostitution in India--where it is highest in the world -- & involves girls as young as 8 or 9 being Sold Into prostitution for their entire lives. The caste system promoted by the religions & culture there fosters this. Again, more violence toward women by men --which affects the Quality of Life for the Whole Society -- & the Whole World!

[The next debate in the election we are in the "throes" of is this coming Thursday evening with Democratic Vice Presidential Candidate Joe Biden, author of the recently passed Violence Against Women Act. His Republican opponent, Paul Ryan, by contrast, seeks to increase violence toward women by Re-defining Rape to the point of speaking of "legitimate" (?!) rape & proposing that abortion be outlawed EVEN in cases of rape or incest! -- and it goes without saying that if Ryan is the V. P. candidate -- it implicates by association presidential candidate Mitt Romney for choosing Ryan as his running mate to "ramp up" the already-in-progress-this-whole-past-year-especially -- the Republican War on Women!

"WE" are not free as long as ONE of us is enslaved by ignorance of all kinds that stunts the realization of that person's full potential! -- & exponentially the Potential of ALL the Humans of the WORLD!!

PLEASE! Carefully examine your HEART -- & Your Humanity/Consciousness/Spirituality, Your Common Sense -- & your Compassion Quotient to see "Where you ARE" in this Stark Contrast of Values & Ideologies. Are you FOR More Violence to the Women in our World? -- or -- Are you FOR the HUMAN RACE & BETTER QUALITY OF LIFE FOR ALL WOMEN -- for your mothers, daughters, sisters, aunts & grandmothers, etc.?

Respect for ALL PEOPLE is the ONLY principle & value that can LIFT HUMANITY OUT OF of the Darkness of Fear & Ignorance that has plagued the Human Species from the Beginning.

EDUCATION (And Consciousness/Awareness) Begins with Me

LOVE Begins with Me -- and

PEACE Begins with Me.


--Norma J. Young
Citizen of the World in Residence

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Mary <[address removed]>
To: 'Norma Young' <[address removed]>
Sent: Sunday, October 7,[masked]:04 PM

Gloria Steinem will be at UCF on October 19 from 11:30 am-2:00
From: Dan Sent: Wednesday, February 27,[masked]:16 AM
Subject: Fwd: Happy Humanist Update - Feb 2013
-----Original Message-----From: DanSent: Tue, Feb 26,[masked]:27 amSubject: Fwd: Happy Humanist Update - Feb 2013
-----Original Message-----From: Jennifer Hancock, Humanist [address removed]Sent: Mon, Feb 25,[masked]:46 pmSubject: Happy Humanist Update - Feb 2013
Daniel , Feb 2013 Happy Humanist e-newsletter from Jennifer Hancock
Email not displaying correctly?View it in your browser.
Jen Hancock: Writer, Speaker, Humanist

The Problem With Magical Thinking

The interesting thing about focusing on the positive aspects of the Humanist philosophy is that it overlaps so much with the self empowerment/spirituality/self-help movements. It makes sense. Humanism is about Human Agency. The idea that we have the ability to create change in our lives and that we therefore have a responsibility to act. It's a heady combination that is quite empowering.As a result of this overlap, I get asked to do the occasional spirituality broadcast or radio show. I like doing these shows. I think we Humanists need to actively compete for the folks looking for help in their lives. We need to be out there encouraging people to take a more rational, realistic and magic free approach to solving their problems. This is important. Living life magic free works. Humanism rejects supernaturalism as a way to accomplish, well, anything. But living life without magic isn't enough. It must be paired with a commitment to compassion, personal responsibility that leads us to act and an understanding that we are dependent on the communities in which we live so we have a responsibility, not just to ourselves, but to the society in which we live. I've recently written a couple of blog posts that explore this idea further: There is no "law" of attraction: Embracing Uncertainty: - my latest column in the Bradenton Herald was printed last weekend: To Pray or Not to Pray - how does a Humanist respectfully cope with group prayer.

What's Been Going On?

Most of my recent work has been focused on bullying prevention. I got a new website up: that offers free training on things like How to talk to your child's school about bullying: and a series of 53 video tips on how to deal with bullying:

was once again on Daytime tv talking about what can be done to prevent bullied kids from taking matters into their own hands and I've done a host of radio shows and presentations. Most fun was the presentation I did for Sarasota County Schools along with the Child Protection Center. It turns out that the mental health team at the school district has been giving my book out to parents who report bullying and the response has been good. In fact, they have run out of books. I am currently checking to see if one of the local Humanist groups wants to donate more books to the school. I was also told that my segment on bullying aired on the John Tesh Network, but I don't yet have a link to the online interview. So, all in all, I'd say things are going well.

In the Works

At the moment, I feel like I definitely have more on my plate than time to do it. I've got several talks lined up in the next couple of months as well as several radio interviews. It's a good mix of Humanism and bullying stuff. I am working on 2nd drafts of the Humanism for Business Managers book (thanks to everyone who provided feedback!) and a 2nd draft of Grief and Grieving for Humanists (thanks to everyone who provided feedback for that book as well.The problem is that there has been mounting interest in my bullying book - which is good - as it can really help - but it does mean I have less time than I would like to work on Humanist writings. It will all work out though because it turns out that several recent interviews I've done on bullying we've spent as much time talking about Humanism as we have on bullying. People get really excited to learn about Humanism and so even though I was booked to talk about Bullying, what the host REALLY wants to discuss is Humanism. I think those of us who are Humanists can take heart in the fact that there is an interest in the philosophy and it really can help. We just need to be open about who we are and why we do what we do.Have a great month and thanks again for your support. Jen Hancock

The Humanist Approach to Happiness: Practical Wisdom by Jennifer Hancock
The Bully Vaccine by Jennifer Hancock
Jennifer Hancock: Writer, Speaker, Humanist
Humanist Life Skills Course
Jen Hancock's Handy Humanism Handbook
An Introduction to Humanism on DVD

Copyright © 2013, All rights reserved.You are receiving this email because you asked Jen to be put on her mailing list or because you had registered for one of her events.Our mailing address is:Manatee County FL -
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From: Death Pooky <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Friday, March 1,[masked]:33 AM
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Re: great news
I'm confused...I thought this group was about free thought and the battle against the privileged position of theism in our community/nation/world.  I checked the upcoming meeting topics and the "about us" links on the web to confirm I hadn't misunderstood.  If I wanted information on saving our natural world, I would sign up for those sites separately (which I do).  If I wanted information on feminist causes, gay rights, corporate and political greed...I would do the same (and do for some of these).  As far as I can tell, this email list is able to be used as a platform for any individual's personal agendas and falls far outside of what I asked for and far outside it's stated purpose.  I would hope that this is an anomaly due to the unmonitored nature of the list and isn't an indication of the direction the list will continue.

Personally, I've always felt that if hell wasn't actually a completely made up notion, their would be a special level just for those that forward emails without adding personal context or additional relevant information.

Mr. Pooky 
Sent from my iPhone
On Mar 1, 2013, at 1:16 AM, Norma Jeane Young <[address removed]> wrote:

From: Kirsten Gillibrand <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, February 28,[masked]:21 PM
Subject: great news
I have great news. Because you refused to give up, minutes ago, the House of Representatives finally joined the Senate in passing a meaningful Violence Against Women Act (VAWA). This took way too long but is proof that your advocacy and your voice matters.
VAWA provides shelter and justice to abused women and protects families. It is the foundation of our efforts to combat domestic violence. Thank you for helping make it happen.
This has been another illustration for why we need to elect more women to office. It is no coincidence that after electing a new generation of women leaders to Congress we finally were able to pass this commonsense and critical bill. I often say Congress would be debating a whole different set of issues if it were made up of 51% women. One thing’s for certain: We would have never let VAWA lapse.
My Off the Sidelines PAC is working every day to recruit and help elect more women. Will you donate today so that we can help more women candidates across the country?
Thank you,

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