Norma's/Dan's Responses: Fw: [atheists-36] Fwd: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?

From: Norma Jeane Y.
Sent on: Friday, November 22, 2013 8:55 AM
As usual, Dan, you raise thought-provoking questions & posit exceptions to "blanket axioms." My first course in logic, in college told me that "All generalizations are false, including this one."
Yes; Dan, I agree that "every situation demands a new appraisal." "Situation Ethics" I heard it first called decades ago--& it was "heresy" that was hotly debated in the fundamentalist religion I came from--where everything was "black or white." I quickly thought the idea had merit & continue to think so, because, logically speaking, "No two 'anythings' are alike--least of all humans and the situations we encounter. You're probably familiar with the difficult-to-fathom fact that "no two grains of sand or snowflakes are exactly alike." Or saying it another way, "You never step into the same stream twice."
Re: Your 2nd paragraph: " . . .It almost certainly would not have worked in the same country had the occupying force been the Nazi army." That made me stop & think, "What If?" . . .and I might add Al-Queda extremists, in addition to the Nazi army.
. . .as Norma says, "Never, ever, ever give up!"
Dan, I'm not the originator of this quote. Many others have said it in varying forms. The concept, in a different use was part of the slogan "NEVER GO BACK" for the 2004 "March for Women's Lives" in Washington D. C. that I drove all night in my car to attend. Over 1 million people came.  The Purpose was to MAKE A VISIBLE & POWERFUL STATEMENT about Reproductive Freedom: Abortion Rights for Women -- & NEVER going back to the "coat-hanger days" of attempted-out-of-desperation, self-induced abortions that killed women.  Rich women have always been able to go to Europe or other countries to obtain legal abortions; however, the burden of another unwanted child because of unobtainable birth control-- or failure of birth control has always fallen more heavily on poor women.
{That happened to me & I chose a legal abortion in 1972 (the only one in my life of now 66 yrs.) after being married for 3 yrs. & feeling intensely that I would rather Die than repeat a life cycle that I felt totally unprepared to do in every way--because I was just beginning my Own Adult life cycle after graduating from college the year before & wanting to give My talents to the World to make it better -- & had Never wanted to go through biological birthing.}
The "Never Give Up" slogan I saw most recently in an AlterNet (I think) article reporting on the World Conference on Women (not sure of exact name of event) where Meryl Streep introduced Hillary Clinton. Her speech ended with that quote. Don't know if it was Meryl's words or quoting Hillary.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Daniel Strack <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, November 21,[masked]:15 PM
Subject: [atheists-36] Fwd: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?

Subject: Fwd: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?

-----Original Message-----
From: Norma Young <[address removed]>
To: Dan <[address removed]>
Sent: Thu, Nov 21,[masked]:50 am
Subject: Re: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?


From: Dan <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Wednesday, November 20,[masked]:22 PM
Subject: Re: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?

     I think we know that in order to truly love others it is necessary to love ourselves in a non-narcissistic way.  But what do we do after that?  As I see it, every situation demands a new appraisal.  It will not do, it will not work, to apply love and non-violence in every case.  There have always been real world examples of governments and other organizations whose responses to love have been hatred and murder.  Even when one is able to reach a few individuals, as when they leave a religious cult, the organization continues in its destructive ways.   
     So, choose your "weapons."  Love has power and, in that sense, can be considered a weapon.  It worked on the British in India.  It almost certainly would not have worked in the same country had the occupying force been the Nazi army.
     Always try to be at peace with yourself.  Others can sense this in you and are more likely to respond positively when they do, to what you put before them.  If you're like me you will fail at least as often as you succeed but, as Norma says, "Never, ever, ever give up!"  --Dan
-----Original Message-----
From: Norma
To: undisclosed recipients: ;
Sent: Wed, Nov 20,[masked]:40 am
Subject: A Vote: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?

Manny, I opened your email, expecting to see a few lines from you--since you're a man of few words--but/and you've "outdone yourself" This Time--with emphasis & Impact.  I have nothing more to add.

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Manny G
To: Norma
Sent: Wednesday, November 20,[masked]:06 AM
Subject: Re: What is Love? -- & How Do We GET There?


On Wed, Nov 20, 2013 at 6:08 AM, Norma  wrote:

(Shared in reverse chronological order received)
Jeffrey & Manny, I agree with Both of you.  Silence or perceived silence (apathy) only encourages the unloving actions.  But violence against violence perpetuates violence--like 2 little kids doing "tit for tat."  Where does it end?  Wars begat wars;  Love creates Love. 
Susan B. Anthony, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther King, Gloria Steinem & Nelson Mandela among others have advocated non-cooperating, non-violence as a way of objecting to & protesting attitudes & actions of injustice & unlove.  Women won the right to vote in 1920; India won its independence from England in 1947; the United States passed the 1964 Civil Rights Act; women began to refer to themselves as "Ms." (as men are "Mr.") with the debut of  Steinem's "Ms. Magazine" in 1971 & South Africa ended apartheid in 1994 through the decades-long heroic leadership of Mandela. 
These were Beginnings & Turning Points. 
Though gross civil rights injustices of many kinds still remain in these countries; these three modern pioneers of peaceful protest & non-violent change have been a Blueprint for many other Movements of Change--including the Feminist Movement;, the Gay Rights Movement; the Environmental Movement; the Whole, Organic, non-GMO, Food Revolution, the Animal Rights Movement & many others.
Change, though painfully slow to those affected Most by the injustices -- DOES happen--through persistent, unrelenting action toward Idealistic & Humanitarian Principles of Love, Equality--& Quality of Life.
Never, Ever, Ever Give Up! 
--Norma J. Young
Forwarded Message -----
From: Jeffrey
[address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, November 19,[masked]:11 PM
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Response from a corresondent: Re: This is why people hate the church

I concur with Norma that by not speaking out against a perceived injustice, one is complicit in it - the example of the Nazi's who only constituted perhaps 10% of the population when they were seeking power.


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Manny
To: Norma >
Sent: Tuesday, November 19,[masked]:14 AM
Subject: Re: Response from a corresondent: Re: This is why people hate the church
Yes as long as it is done with love and not anger.
Forgive the people and love them, that is the way they learn,
don't condone or forgive their actions.
-----Original Message-----
From: Norma
To: atheists-36 <[address removed]>
Sent: Tue, Nov 19,[masked]:33 am
Subject: [atheists-36] Response from a corresondent: Re: This is why people hate the church

Loving who? 
Loving the Bishop who's hating the gays?
Are you exhorting the Bishop to "Lets let go of the hate, anger and ignorance?." -- or me/everybody to let go of hating those who hate?  I guess that was Jesus' famous quote on the cross.  "Forgive them for they know not what they do." 
Well. . .maybe it's Time for Education--for that IS a form of Love -- Protest is a form of education -- as the Faithful America group is trying to do--& every other group that's advanced civilization has tried to do & done--the Civil Rights Movement, the Feminist Movement & all the other freedom movements, as well as Environmental, Healthy Food Revolution, etc. etc.
Maybe it's Time that people DO KNOW what they do (or forbid) & why.  Maybe it's Time that people LOVE by not accepting & complacently compliciting in the hate--again the analogy of the Holocaust--if the "other people" had protested/had not accepted the Nazi hate when it was in its infancy, it wouldn't have become the monster it became.

From: Manny
To: Norma
Sent: Tuesday, November 19,[masked]:14 AM
Subject: Re: This is why people hate the church

Focus on love and get love.
Lets let go of the hate, anger and ignorance.

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 8:37 PM, Norma > wrote:

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: "Michael Sherrard, Faithful America" <[address removed]>
To: Norma
Sent: Monday, November 18,[masked]:25 AM
Subject: This is why people hate the church

Dear Faithful America member,
As U.S. Catholic bishops struggle to adapt to Pope Francis's vision for a more inclusive and welcoming Catholic Church, one Illinois bishop thinks he knows exactly what the pope would want him to do:
Blame marriage equality on the devil and schedule an "exorcism" at the same time the governor signs it into law.
According to Bishop Thomas Paprocki, the Illinois legislature is "morally complicit as co-operators in facilitating this grave sin … We must pray for deliverance from this evil which has penetrated our state and our church."
While other Catholics are working to put service to the poor and broken at the center of the church's ministry, Bishop Paprocki is embarrassing the church with a pointless political stunt, staging what he's calling "prayers of supplication and exorcism in reparation for the sin of same-sex marriage."
Let's show Bishop Paprocki -- and the dozens of media outlets that are already covering this story -- that everyday Catholics and other Christians are appalled and want him to cancel his plans for this "exorcism."
-- Michael and Aaron



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