Re: [atheists-36] Bigger Strategic Issues in Iraq!

From: J. Y.
Sent on: Saturday, June 21, 2014 3:13 AM
This is likely not to be popular with you but here goes.
 
Since Israel is known to have or at least is capable of producing nuclear weapons on short notice, and the USA has around 5,000 or so nuclear warheads, I think it is hypocritical to deny Iran the right to have nuclear weapons for self defense and deterrence against the use of nuclear weapons against them.   Until the nations that do have nuclear weapons such as the USA and Israel declare that they will not use nuclear weapons as a first strike weapon but only in self defense and retailiation against a nuclear attack against them, I would not deny any country the right to have nuclear weapons.  It is the same principle about ensuring against genocide - I would arm the weaker side for their defense.


-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel Strack <[address removed]>
To: atheists-36 <[address removed]>
Sent: Sat, Jun 21,[masked]:55 am
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Bigger Strategic Issues in Iraq!

     Another issue to keep in mind as we discuss the subject is this: A divided Iraq means a stronger Iran, which is almost surely trying to develop an atomic weapon and missiles to deliver those weapons.  They will eventually have a long range missile capable of reaching the United States.  We can not count on moderation in that country, whose government still regards us as "The Great Satin."  It's sad to even have to contemplate these things but "there they are."  I hope against hope that a viable atomic energy agreement, involving inspections, can be reached with that country before Israel decides it can wait no longer. 
     I'm sympathetic to the "allow them to have three countries, providing there is no genocide" approach voiced by Norma but I think the situation would have to be closely monitored for signs of a strengthened Iran becoming more aggressive.  I'm pretty certain that President Obama will be judicious with any use of force, which I hope is not necessary.  The three country solution may be a fall back position viewed as less advantageous to the United States than a loosely unified Iraq.  --Dan
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: J. Young <[address removed]>
To: atheists-36 <[address removed]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 20,[masked]:52 pm
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Bigger Strategic Issues in Iraq!

I think that the USA should stay out militarily from the conflict in terms of fighting for a particular side right now - since it is so confusing but instead but try to act as an arbitrarer (sp) to mediate the negotiations between the parties for whatever the ultimate outcome the Iraqi's decide.  The only way I would interfere is if one or more sides starts genocide, in which case I would help arm the weaker side so that they can defend themselves, but not fight for them.


-----Original Message-----
From: Norma Jeane Young <[address removed]>
To: atheists-36 <[address removed]>
Sent: Fri, Jun 20,[masked]:56 am
Subject: Re: [atheists-36] Bigger Strategic Issues in Iraq!

Thank you, J. Young, for voicing your opinion & providing some perspective 
currently & historically on the religious/ethnic makeup of Iraq.  It makes sense 
to me to let the Iraqians decide how to handle their differences.  Having 3 
separate states representing the 3 religious groups could be a workable 
solution--unless one or two of the groups try to suppress or even resort to 
genocide on the smaller or weaker group. Then we'd have a human rights issue, 
like occurred in Rwanda & other countries.  Like you; I hope for a moderate 
solution.  I hope you're right on Obama's reluctance to use military 
force--especially in a "big way" again in Iraq.  I think he's "Done" with War in 
Iraq -- & Afghanistan too.

--Norma


--------------------------------------------
On Wed, 6/18/14, J. Young <[address removed]> wrote:

 Subject: [atheists-36] Bigger Strategic Issues in Iraq!
 To: [address removed]
 Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2014, 3:01 PM
 
 
 Forturnately, we have as
 President Obama, who is very reluctant to use military force
 to solve problems.
 
 
  
 
 
 It is a position that I sometimes disagree with - I
 think some measured approaches could be done based on the
 local circumstances.
 
 
  
 
 
 However, I am not worried about Obama getting us
 involved again in a big way in Iraq.
 
 
  
 
 
 The bigger question is why we should be supporting a
 unified Iraq in the first place.   Iraq was
 created by English and French bureaucrats drawing arbituary
 lines on a map after World War I.   I believe
 it is up to Iraqi's to determine their future.  If
 they want three separate entities, Kurdistan, Shia-stan, and
 Sunni-stan, who are we to interfere.   My hope is
 that once the three entities are established, the more
 moderate folks in Sunni-stan will oust the ISIS
 faction.  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 -----Original
 Message-----
 
 From: Norma Jeane Young <[address removed]>
 
 To: atheists-36 <[address removed]>
 
 Sent: Wed, Jun 18,[masked]:39 am
 
 Subject: [atheists-36] FW: Call Congress: Don't drag
 America back into war in Iraq!
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Maybe you’ve already seen
 this.  I just now heard about it.  I had a
 conversation with a retired, “gung-ho” Marine (who I
 discovered disappointedly, but not surprisingly was grossly
 sexist) this past Sunday whose parting words to me
 were:  “We’re going to bomb Baghdad.”  I
 thought he was “blowing smoke” & just being a
 “testosterone-raving, macho jerk” at something THIS
 ludicrous & unthinkable.  Apparently not. 
 Please act to stop more Insanity.  Thank
 you.
 
 
  
 
 
 --Norma
 
 
  
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: Anna Galland, MoveOn.org Political
 Action [mailto:[address removed]]
 
 
 Sent: Tuesday, June 17,[masked]:16 PM
 
 To: Norma J. Young
 
 Subject: Call Congress: Don't drag America back
 into war in Iraq!
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Can you please call Sen. Nelson,
 Sen. Rubio, and Rep. Mica? Tell them: "Dragging
 America back into war in Iraq with military intervention
 would be a tremendous mistake. Please ask the president to
 come to Congress for a vote, then say no to more war in
 Iraq."  
 
 
 Senator Bill Nelson
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 
 Senator Marco Rubio
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 
 Representative John Mica
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Report Your
 Call! 
 
 
 
 Dear MoveOn
 member,
 
 
 The stakes are incredibly
 high and time's running short. President Obama signaled
 on Friday that in the days ahead, he will decide whether or
 not to take military action in Iraq in response to the
 growing sectarian violence.1 Should the
 order come, U.S. warships now in the Persian Gulf are ready
 to launch airstrikes against Iraq.2
 
 
 To be clear, President
 Obama was right to end the Iraq war in 2011. Now he's
 under immense pressure from lawmakers like John McCain and
 Lindsey Graham, as well as discredited Bush advisers who are
 eager to drag America back into the disastrous
 conflict.3 Remember Bill Kristol and Paul
 Wolfowitz? They're the same figures who were behind the
 original invasion and subsequent mismanagement of the war,
 which set the stage for the crisis in Iraq
 today.4,5
 
 
 The good news is that
 numerous members of Congress have already joined prominent
 military leaders, foreign policy experts, veterans like
 MoveOn member Matthew Hoh, and Americans from all walks of
 life to speak out against new U.S. military intervention in
 Iraq.6,7 Every member of Congress needs to
 hear from us today that a U.S. return to Iraq would be a
 tremendous mistake. They must also meet their responsibility
 as elected lawmakers to preside over the decision to go to
 war at all and insist that the president come to Congress
 for a vote on any possible military action.
 
 
 Will you call Sen.
 Nelson, Sen. Rubio, and Rep. Mica today? Tell them:
 "Ending the Iraq war was the right decision, and
 restarting it with U.S. military intervention now would be a
 tremendous mistake. Please ask the president to come to
 Congress for a vote, then say no to more war in Iraq."
 It's okay to leave a voicemail or call back tomorrow,
 since the situation is changing rapidly. Our representatives
 need to hear from us right away.
 
 
 Here's where to call:
 
 
 
 Senator Bill Nelson
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 
 Senator Marco Rubio
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 
 Representative John Mica
 
 Phone: (202)[masked]
 
 
 Then, please report your
 call by clicking here:
 
 
 http://pol.moveon.org/call?tg=FSFL_1.FSFL_2.FHFL_07&cp_id=2097&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=2
 
 
 President Obama said
 Friday that he would consult with Congress on decisions
 about military action in Iraq, and if enough members of
 Congress speak out now, we can have the full debate we need
 before taking military
 action.8 
 
 
 The warnings are grim. If
 the U.S. takes military action in response to the crisis in
 Iraq, it would be pouring more fuel on a raging fire and
 doubling down on the Bush Administration's colossal
 failures:9
 
 
 
 "It makes no sense
 for us to consider going back there and getting involved in
 what truly is a religious civil war. What real difference
 would [air strikes] make on the ground?" 
 
 –Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI), Iraq War veteran
 
 
 "I don't think
 there's any appetite from the American people to go back
 and do our work twice." 
 
 –Rep. Scott Perry (R-PA), Iraq War veteran
 
 
 "Ultimately, this is
 for the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi government to
 deal with." 
 
 –Rear Adm. John F. Kirby, Pentagon spokesman
 
 
 "Unless the US has
 bombs that can install wisdom and leadership into [Prime
 Minister] Maliki, airstrikes in Iraq would be
 pointless." 
 
 –Micah Zenko, Douglas Dillon Fellow at the Council on
 Foreign Relations  
 
 
 "If 10 years,
 millions of hours of work and hundreds of billions of
 dollars could not build a regime that can survive, it is
 difficult to imagine any fix that can. . .We broke Iraq. We
 paid a huge price in lives, treasure and legitimacy. It is
 time to stop paying." 
 
 –Joe Cirincione, president of the Ploughshares
 Fund10
 
 
 Enough is enough! America
 cannot go down this road again. And with your help creating
 a massive outpouring of opposition to war in Iraq, we
 won't have to. 
 
 
 Thanks for all you
 do.
 
 
 –Anna, Bobby, Joan,
 Stephen, and the rest of the team
 
 
 Sources:
 
 
 1. "Transcript:
 President Obama's remarks on the crisis in
 Iraq," The Washington Post, June 13,
 2014  
 
 http://www.moveon.org/r/?r=299303&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=3
 
 
 2. "U.S. warships
 sit within striking distance of Iraq as Obama rules out
 putting troops back on the ground," National
 Post, June 13, 2014 
 
 http://www.moveon.org/r/?r=299273&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=4
 
 
 3. "On Iraq,
 let's ignore those who got it all wrong," The
 Washington Post, June 13, 2014  
 
 ttp://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2014/06/13/on-iraq-lets-ignore-those-who-got-it-all-wrong/
 
 
 4. "Fareed Zakaria:
 Who lost Iraq? The Iraqis did, with an assist from George W.
 Bush," The Washington Post, June 12, 2014 
 
 http://www.moveon.org/r/?r=299275&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=6
 
 
 5. "Fool Me
 Once," Slate, June 16, 2014 
 
 http://www.moveon.org/r/?r=299302&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=7
 
 
 6. "Tell President
 Obama and Congress: Keep America Out Of Iraq!,"
 MoveOn.org Petition, accessed June 16, 2014  
 
 http://pac.petitions.moveon.org/sign/tell-president-obama-32?id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=8
 
 
 
 7. "Quotes Against
 Military Intervention in Iraq," Win Without War,
 accessed June 16, 2014 
 
 ttp://winwithoutwar.org/quotes-iraq/
 
 
 8.
 Ibid.
 
 
 9.
 Ibid.
 
 
 10. "Don't Be
 Sucked Into War With Iraq, Again," Defense One, June
 12, 2014  
 
 http://www.moveon.org/r/?r=299277&id=97307-20321536-_eLyeKx&t=9
 
 
 
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