Re: [Interstellar-Travel-100-Year-Starship] The Myth of the Flat (meetup: message 16 of 20) Earth

From: Jeffrey C. J.
Sent on: Monday, July 1, 2013 3:22 PM
Folks,

Right now the best scientific way, except for the feedback problem exposed by Hawking, to interstellar travel known with today's understanding is based on Prof. Kip Thorne's computations for construction of an Einstein-Rosen bridge.  Unlike Farscape, this doesn't assume a hidden, underlying superhighway of wormholes connecting Earth to the far reaches of the universe.  However, it does take advantage of what a Type 2 Civilization (We are currently about Type 0.72 according to Prof. Michio Kaku's interpretation of Carl Sagan's Kardashev scale.) can accomplish by harnessing the mass of a star as an energy pump to create a large enough casimir negative vacuum energy field which can thus connect 2 points in space-time.  Initially the wormholes will be adjacent, but this Type 2 civilization can then pull them apart and then put one on a near-light-speed space ship.  The ship can be very well shielded and use slow acceleration to achieve faster speeds conventionally, such as via Ion Drive.  The other end, expanded to human size, is then sent to Earth.  Meanwhile the ship accelerates and experiences Time Dilation until it reaches its destination.  Now, remember I said nothing could travel faster than light but something on a ship traveling at nearly light speed could nonetheless travel a great distance without much aging?  Well, the same thing goes for the Wormhole, so if it takes 1,000 years to reach the distant star as we watch the space ship, time may be dilated such that that end of the wormhole will only age 33 years and if that end has only aged 33 years, our end would also only have aged 33 years.  So after 33 years, we can look through the wormhole at that star 998.8 ly away, while seeing our ship only 32.96 ly from Earth.  That's how you could, with our current understanding, institute interstellar travel.  I suggest we all study tensor math and Kip Thorne's paper on this subject and then figure out how to turn the mass of a star into energy, just not the sun; Proxima Centauri seems a good candidate.  :)

Jeffrey,


On 1 July[masked]:00, RJC - [address removed] <meetup.timehorse.50b0272d4f.rjcarter_ga#[address removed]> wrote:
So true, Martin.
The shortest route to failure is to never begin. And since we are setting a goal of interstellar travel, let's place our energy into moving toward it, rather than away. If we so much as make one advancement toward that goal, we will have charted a course for those who come after. Success is incremental, not en masse. It reminds me of a funny thing my dad always used to tell me: Son, do you know how to eat an elephant? ...one bite at a time. Needless to say, as a kid I just thought it sounded silly, but it is really a lighthearted vehicle for an idea steeped in wisdom.




-------- Original message --------
From: M <[address removed]>
Date: 07/01/2013 14:03 (GMT-05:00)
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [Interstellar-Travel-100-Year-Starship] The Myth of the Flat Earth


We hear that back in the day, when those cavemen were bumping around scratching out designs for a wheel, some of them knew the motorcycle was on the way, only it was down the road a piece.  Other's told them it was theoretically impossible (like be real Og, there's no road).  I am certain I speak for all when I say I am pleased they stuck it out.


From: "David Abraham" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, June 30,[masked]:50:55 PM
Subject: RE: [Interstellar-Travel-100-Year-Starship] The Myth of the Flat Earth

While I would only applaud anyone who devotes his/her life to a future today barely imaginable, I honestly doubt that you will find one person in the scientific community who would suggest that (manned!) interstellar travel is likely/probable within the next 500 years.  None of the milestones so far achieved or talked about within the space community has been a surprise to anyone who has been interested in space flight since he was a pre-teen in the late 1940's.  
Landing on Mars is one thing, interstellar quite another.  The nearest star after the Sun is 500,000 times further away from us than Mars, 500,000 times farther away than Mars!  It demands a wholly new science of energy.

I am not trying to dampen your enthusiasm, just trying to lay a proper foundation for how hard it is.  GO FOR IT!




Subject: RE: [Interstellar-Travel-100-Year-Starship] The Myth of the Flat Earth
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Sun, 30 Jun[masked]:29:12 -0400

I would agree that "conventional scientific thinking" might view interstellar space travel as possible in the future. However...the dominant ideology (the majority of people and how they have been socialized) tend to articlate the belief that interstellar space travel is a fantasy and that if it is possible, it would happen so far into the future that it doesnt make sense to think about, talk about, or to commit one's life studying about it. The scientific community, or at least people within the space community, they seem to be moving forward to achieve milestones towards interstellar space travel.
On Jun 30,[masked]:08 PM, "David Abraham" <[address removed]> wrote:
I think that conventional scientific thinking says that interstellar travel is not possible anytime SOON, surely not in the next 50 years.  No prediction can be (dis-)proved until it is lived.   Never is a long long long time.  The first hump is humanity getting smarter so that it may survive its own suicidal tendencies.   IF we are around in 5000 years, I'd bet on interstellar travel (and I'll come back to collect).




Subject: Re: [Interstellar-Travel-100-Year-Starship] The Myth of the Flat Earth
From: [address removed]
To: [address removed]
Date: Sun, 30 Jun[masked]:52:36 -0400

PS....I did state that people "tended" to believe that our Earth was flat. It seems that there are usually  pockets and groups of people likely to think differently than the dominant ideology at various historical epochs. During our current epoch, I believe tje dominant idelogical view is that interstellar space travel is not possible. This doesn't "prove" that interstellar space travel is not and/or will never be possible or realizable. Im not directing this at anyone. I just wanted to speak from my heart about this thought as I was experiencing it.
On Jun 30,[masked]:15 PM, "David" <[address removed]> wrote:
Not that Wikipedia is the best source for anything, but this one has citations:

"The myth of the Flat Earth is the modern misconception that the
prevailing cosmological view during the Middle Ages saw the Earth as
flat, instead of spherical.[1] The idea seems to have been widespread
during the first half of the 20th century, so that the Members of the
Historical Association in 1945 stated that:

'The idea that educated men at the time of Columbus believed that the
earth was flat, and that this belief was one of the obstacles to be
overcome by Columbus before he could get his project sanctioned,
remains one of the hardiest errors in teaching.'[2]

During the early Middle Ages, virtually all scholars maintained the
spherical viewpoint first expressed by the Ancient Greeks. From at
least the 14th century, belief in a flat earth among the educated was
nearly nonexistent, in spite of fanciful depictions in art, such as
the exterior of Hieronymus Bosch's famous triptych The Garden of
Earthly Delights, in which a disc-shaped earth is shown floating
inside a transparent sphere.[3]

According to Stephen Jay Gould, 'there never was a period of "flat
earth darkness" among scholars (regardless of how the public at large
may have conceptualized our planet both then and now). Greek knowledge
of sphericity never faded, and all major medieval scholars accepted
the earth's roundness as an established fact of cosmology.'[4]
Historians of science David Lindberg and Ronald Numbers point out that
'there was scarcely a Christian scholar of the Middle Ages who did not
acknowledge [Earth's] sphericity and even know its approximate
circumference'.[5]"


On 6/30/13, Edythe Weeks <[address removed]> wrote:
> I think it is important to remember that people once tended to believe our
> world was flat.



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"Scan not a friend with a microscopic glass; you know his faults so let his foibles pass." -- Victorian Proverb, likely Sir Frank Crisp, 1st Baronet of Bungay

"Dans le silence on ne sait pas, il faut continuer, je ne peux pas continuer, je vais continuer." -- L'Innommable, Samuel Beckett

"and thus the whirligig of time brings in his revenges" -- The Clown
  from 'Twelfth Night' v, , Act 5, Scene 1 by William Shakespeare

"Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien." -- François-Marie Arouet (Voltare), La Bégueule (1772)

~,-;`    The TimeHorse

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