Re: [KC-Midtown-FreeThinkers] Dear Religion

From: John
Sent on: Friday, August 10, 2012 6:01 PM
Fed,
If poop gets thrown at you, would you not duck?

-----Original Message-----

From: Zach Price
Sent: 10 Aug[masked]:01:19 GMT
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [KC-Midtown-FreeThinkers] Dear Religion

 It seems to me that simple instruction is not enough.  Science has not solved these problems? To the best of my knowledge, either has religion.  I don't find it difficult to imagine the difference in progress that we could have realized if we half as many scientists as there re Christians and for half as long.  For now, I am going only briefly allude to the many areas where religious tenants are directly hindering the progress of science in very real, very obvious ways.  Why, in a general sense, we don't do what we should do all boils down to human nature, which science is learning more about every day.  In my very humble opinion, there is no realistic argument that can be made for religion being a primary vehicle to everyone getting along.  Religions justify the good, as well as the bad and even the good tends to come with allot of unnecessary baggage (Irrational guilt and fear, for example) and I think one can make a reasonable argument for the bad outweighing the good.  The intangible has had the upper hand for some time now and we really need to continue moving in the opposite direction.  I also wouldn't look at it as a lack of motivation on our part.  If a bear is trained to ride a tricycle in the circus and attacks someone, would we say he has no motivation for bike riding anymore?  We need to be honest with ourselves about human nature and how closely we still are to the apes that lived day to day in a constant struggle for survival.  We think that higher consciousness should mean that we are more civilized than the animals, and on just about every level we are, but there is a limit to how much our true nature can be overcome by our very recent acquisition of reason and logic.  To steal a bit from Hitch, If the tomb were found tomorrow, containing the body of Christ still in it....would you then loose all motivation to be good and help others?  I personally doubt that.  I think people have grown up with the association between being good and the bible and that becomes all they know.  Maybe people genuinely do fear loosing motivation if they were to lose faith.  There is certainly a large community of non-believers out there that are plenty capable of being good for it's own sake and I could only hope that fact may someday provide you with enough evidence to believe you are capable of the same thing.  I believe in you and my fellow humans far more than that.  The irony is this: if anything should be obvious, it is that this experiment with Christianity of thousands of year has not and cannot be reasonably expected to be the way to get to where I think we all want to be.

 
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:36 AM, Fred <[address removed]> wrote:
Thanks for a reasoned response, Adam.  Not rude at all.  I gotta get to bed, but I'll look at that video soon and respond.  In the meantime, I'll agree that many religious people, especially wrongly educated Christians, are trained to use their religion to justify harm or ignorance.  I'm among their victims.

I'll also say there's a bunch of us Christians who don't debate what kind of chicken sandwich to eat.  But most importantly to begin to answer your question:  I've dedicated much of my life to understanding and communicating that body of knowledge we call science.  Science and technology give us the means to do some of the things that can solve the greatest needs of our time:  cure diseases, find better ways of food distribution, bring clean water, educate, maybe even eliminate poverty.  All these things are now within our grasp, and accumulated knowledge about the physical world has brought us to this place where we could now eliminate hunger and 95 percent of the third world's problems with disease, poverty, crime, etc.  So why haven't we done it?  Why aren't we doing it?  

We, as a species, lack the motivation.  Science gives us the technological solutions.  Jesus, who told me to love my neighbor as myself and even to love my enemies, gives me the motivation to implement them.

Fred



On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 11:02 PM, Adam <[address removed]> wrote:
At the risk of being rude...
So... churches accomplish things advancing society like the things science does?  Eliminating Polio, exploring the universe, explaining why the air around purified radium is electrically charged, devising algorithms that are fundamental to programing computers long before such devices are even conceived?

I ask very seriously, aside from warm and comforting feelings, which I do know religion/faith provides, I don't see what a person gets out of them.  But I have seen from talking with you that you do get something I don't understand out of your beliefs (even though I grew up religious, there is something not registering) so... perhaps that is what you get that I am missing.

Now I do agree that in a historical context, religion served man.  When most of the world was unknown, it helped bridge the space between villages, and spread similar thought patterns.  But I personally don't see it as useful in that context any more, and it had a VERY high price even then. In truth I see it as detrimental to furthering the cause of "universal understanding" between modern cultures, as I say so very often though: "that is a whole other discussion."  (But that is also using "religion" as something a little synonymous with closed mindedness, as is brilliantly discussed by Neil deGrasse Tyson in his "naming rights" discussion http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDAT98eEN5Q, though I don't think many religious people agree with people who think religion looks that way from the outside.)

Anyway, I really only object to religion when it is used to justify harm or ignorance.  Shoot, I'm ok with voodoo, but ask "so... are you going to eat that chicken?"  But I would like to see specifics of claims.  (That is what science does, I know many who say "its not up to religion to be testable." *shrug*)

My two bits (and then some) I hope I don't appear to be jumping all over you, I just don't agree that modern humanity gets anything from religion.


On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:16 PM, Fred <[address removed]> wrote:
All right, get ready to jump all over me:

Dear Atheist,
While you were bogged down in the either-or fallacy, I was getting the most I could out of both science and religion.
Sincerely,
Your Pal Christian

Fred


On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 3:11 PM, Marlys Kummer Doerflinger <[address removed]> wrote:

I agree.   This is perfect for a Facebook post.

 

From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf Of Joe Thomas
Sent: Thursday, August 09,[masked]:53 AM
To: [address removed]
Subject: Re: [KC-Midtown-FreeThinkers] Dear Religion

 

That is EPIC!! Beautiful 

On Aug 7, 2012, at 8:51 PM, cole morgan <[address removed]> wrote:

 

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: GREG GLADISH <[address removed]>
To:
Sent: Tuesday, August 7,[masked]:49 PM
Subject: Dear Religion

 



 

Greg G

 

 

 



<dear>

 





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Don't part with your illusions.
When they are gone you may still exist, but you have ceased to live.

-- Mark Twain






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