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Atheist Feminists Message Board The London Feminism Meetup Group Discussion Forum › Guides Change their oath to include non-believers, children and adults as we

Guides Change their oath to include non-believers, children and adults as well as LBT people.

Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,577
At last the 'Girl Guides' have bowed to pubic opinion in removing its oath to 'God and The Queen'.
This has in the past effectively excluded non-believers and anyone who does not support a hereditary monarchy along with its conservative ethos.

This excludes, not just children and young people, but the adults who help to run the groups and influence the young people. The sectarian oath also effectively excluded LBT young people and senior guides.

Radio 5 live (with Nicki Campbell) is leading the way in reporting support, but there is a need for our members to alert the importance of this long overdue reform all across the media. The BHA contribution to the interview was poor in the extreme so I hope that our members will help to make the points missed that God belief and religion is NOT something good.

It should certainly not be grounds for prejudice and discrimination against atheists and secularists

Points that need to be made to all the media outlets who ignore any criticism of religion.

1) God beliefs including Christianity and Islam have been a curse and not the blessing as is always claimed by the religions. Yet the evidence from history and the current affairs shows clearly that the very opposite is true.

2) The religions have for centuries promoted oppressive regimes, cruelty, conflict and conquest, feudalism and slavery, atrocities and genocide all over the world.

3) The humanism of the BHA is a poor ‘good without god’ version of humanism, without the wisdom of atheismuk and the National Secular Society that challenges religion with the evidence and the rational argument vs sectarianism.

4) Progress has come from dissidents and heretics who had to opposed their own religious hierarchies when the support for reform has already been demonstrated

5) People are still being lead by the nose in our media, by religions, repeating fallacies and lies that underpin their collusion with conservatism and selfish libertarianism.

6) Russia and Germany under Hitler and Stalin were steeped in Chritianity ,
Orthodox, Lutheran and Roman Catholic with their inbuilt anti-Semitism. Concentration camps were pioneered in South Africa by the British.

7) Their attitudes are vengeful and punitive not rational and progressive in understanding human motivation and behaviour.
A former member
Post #: 2
Troll banned.
Angela D.
user 71491512
London, GB
Post #: 81
Get lost Tesko.

never despair, Sue
Faith, Flag, and F...
user 100535972
Croston, GB
Post #: 2
"At last the 'Girl Guides' have bowed to pubic opinion in removing its oath to 'God and The Queen'."

I hope you mean a small yet vocal minority. The majority of girls in the 'Girl Guides' are Christian, and the general public does have more important matters than deciding this insignificant issue. That said, "To serve my community" what? Is it wrong to say country now? It seems eventually our great culture and traditions will by eroded by a disrupted, unpatriotic and intolerant minority. However I do not believe they have gotten rid of "Queen" yet.

Well what do we have here now? 7 points criticising Religion, well let us see if these are all true.

"1) God beliefs including Christianity and Islam have been a curse and not the blessing as is always claimed by the religions. Yet the evidence from history and the current affairs shows clearly that the very opposite is true."

1) Philip and Axelrod’s three-volume Encyclopedia of Wars chronicles stated 1,763 wars have been fought over the course in human history. Out of these 1,763 they categorize only 123 as being religious in nature. That's 6.98%. Furthermore, when you subtract the 66 in the name of Islam you get 3.8% as the percentage of the wars caused by the world's faiths, minus Islam.

"2) The religions have for centuries promoted oppressive regimes, cruelty, conflict and conquest, feudalism and slavery, atrocities and genocide all over the world."

2) The 60 million starved to death in the Soviet Union. Another 60 million killed in Communist China. 20 Million killed by the Nazis, another 10 or so million killed in South America. The only society that was Christian was Germany, so to say that Religion has promoted oppressive regimes is a bit bold.

"3) The humanism of the BHA is a poor ‘good without god’ version of humanism, without the wisdom of atheismuk and the National Secular Society that challenges religion with the evidence and the rational argument vs sectarianism."

So does Feminists not support Humanism? Odd, they both advocate for woman's rights and so called equallity

"4) Progress has come from dissidents and heretics who had to opposed their own religious hierarchies when the support for reform has already been demonstrated."

4) Yes, progress. It started in the 1960s and 1970s, when our educational system collapsed, our social morals were destroyed, the awful sight of those flat blocks everywhere and we became the burden of Europe. Sexual Liberation was also created; women were free to do whatever they wanted and whoever they wanted. Now those same women want to get rid of something they created, porn. It seems you shot your own foot there.

"5) People are still being lead by the nose in our media, by religions, repeating fallacies and lies that underpin their collusion with conservatism and selfish libertarianism."

5. We can agree there are three ways to control people, the church, the media and the schools. The church will always be conservative, and support conservative ideals. The media usually is Left-wing likewise with the schools. May I ask, is the only right answer to join Left-Wing politics or bow to Socialism?

"6) Russia and Germany under Hitler and Stalin were steeped in Chritianity ,
Orthodox, Lutheran and Roman Catholic with their inbuilt anti-Semitism. Concentration camps were pioneered in South Africa by the British."


6) Stalin's Russia only allowed Christianity for a small period of time; this was in result to the poor morale in the Red Army. The term "Motherland" came from the period when Christianity was allowed. Hitler is debatable, yes in Mein Kampf he talks about how he is doing the Lord's work. But when did he write that? He wrote it in the early 1920s. Lastly, yes the British did use Concentration camps. But they were used by the Spanish in the 1860's even American soldiers used similar camps on Cherokee and other Native Americans in the 1830's. But they were not refereed to has “Concentration camps”, we simply invented the term.

"7) Their attitudes are vengeful and punitive not rational and progressive in understanding human motivation and behaviour."

7) Personally I think I have given a rational argument, I have not insulted or used "vengeful and punitive" language.

Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,597
FF& F
You write:
"The majority of girls in the 'Girl Guides' are Christian, and the general public does have more important matters than deciding this insignificant issue.
Insisting that girls and young women should swear an oath to god and the Queen, (an unelected hereditary monarch) is discriminatory and religion is no trivial or laughing matter for thousands of women and girls. all over the world.

No comment and campaigning against prejudice and discrimination is unimportant important - it is an abuse of children and freedom of thought and speech and more important if it excludes children from inclusive recreational facilities.

If you think it is a trivial and unimportant matter, why have an oath at all?
---------------
Re- you 7 items

You do not appear to understand freethought. It is not just believing anything you want to believe it is about thinking and decision-making without ancient texts and superstitious god beliefs.

As an apologist for religion you seem to have a very short and limited perspective considering the effects of patriarchal religions on society in general and women and children in particular over 3000 years.

The attitudes that punish the poor and disadvantaged, on justice, from 'Trial by Ordeal', penal policy and punishment; Sectarian regimes and elitist attitudes over millennia - & that is only the Abrahamic religions, that includes Christianity and Islam.

I wonder if you could go back just a little further - & add cruelty, suffering and death:

*The killing and persecution of women in Medieval Britain.

*The Witch trials in Europe and America, the mass killing of the Conquistadores in the Americas,

*The torture, persecution and killings of the Spanish Inquisition and in other European countries.

*Excluding women from education and all that flows from it, i.e. from the professions, academia, education and health and all aspects of government and policy making. - despite their greater experience of caring and family issues.

*The effect of Feudalism over the centuries, especially the populations such as Russia and Germany who were steeped in Christianity, Orthodox, Roman Catholic and Lutheran - with its built-in Anti-Semitism.

*The thousands of women who have died as a result of banning contraception and abortion.

*The present day problems of juggling family employment and domesticity and old age without large families to provide.

You may think you have given a rational argument, I do not agree, but it would be time consuming for me to answer you unless spend some time doing a little more research, then come back to me e.g:-

You might look at the profile of the group (on the 'Pages' Tab at the top of the site) and some of the Files such as 'The Role of Religion on Education' or 'A Challenge to Religion on Health' See Files Section on the 'More' tab above.


Faith, Flag, and F...
user 100535972
Croston, GB
Post #: 3
Well Bloody Hell, I'm still on this site. Unfortunately looks like Tesko has been banned, well that's a pity.

I stated that the majority of girls in the 'Girl Guides' are Christian, and only a small minority are not. The question is why did they have to create a new one and get rid of the old one? Why not make a separate one for non-believers and keep the original Oath? You stated, "Why have an oath at all?" Have you heard the saying "Word is Bond?" Are the concepts of Honour, Loyalty and Pride only a male abstraction?
---------------
Re- your points

Well with that explanation, I can understand the second part of your statement. But not the first part "It is not just believing anything you want to believe." Then why are you a Feminist? There is enough evidence to show issues such as the 'Wage Gap' are myths, statics are extracted and women have MORE rights than men.

I'm not an "apologist for religion", I'm simply stating that instead of playing the matriarchal blame game, look at yourself. I'm not going to deny the fact that the Bible and the Quran are harsh on women, however Feminism is no better. There's a reason why men evolved to leaders, and women didn't. You can blame it on Religion, I don’t.

Now, let us examine some of these points you have given me. My goal is not to debate if Religion is good or bad, I will admit it has its ups and downs. However I more focused on how specific you made some of these questions.

"*The killing and persecution of women in Medieval Britain."

So men weren't killed and persecuted in Medieval Britain, it was just women? (But of course Victorian Britain was no better; I mean women could get off the death penalty for Vandalism, Arson, etc. since they were the 'weaker sex' </sarcasm>)

"*The Witch trials in Europe and America"

No doubt in mind it was a horrible event, for women AND men. Women were not the only ones killed during these trials, there were also men. Yes it was about Religion, one of the cruel aspects of it.

"*The mass killing of the Conquistadores in the Americas"

If I may, Religion does not kill people. People kill people. Humans can turn anything to a weapon, even a Faith. Humans will always kill each other, which may be for their Country, People, Faith or Beliefs. Also the Conquistadores were more focused on filling their pockets.

"*Excluding women from education and all that flows from it, i.e. from the professions, academia, education and health and all aspects of government and policy making."

Well like mentioned in the image I posted, which you were keen to insult and ridicule by calling me, or people who share my views, "SEXIST, MISOGYNIST, CLOSET RACISTS, XENOPHOBES AND HOMOPHOBES" all of which I am not. You clearly have proven my point here, women are emotional driven. If it's government and policy making, if a female leader lets her emotion take over, who will respect and follow her? The perfect example would be the ex-Australian Prime Minister, Julia Gillard.

Now of course I not against female leaders, the second greatest British Prime Minister in my opinion would be Margaret Thatcher. She was a woman who didn't let emotions take over, and didn't call her opponents Sexists. For education and health, well there's primary school teachers, nurses, etc.

"*The thousands of women who have died as a result of banning contraception and abortion."

What about the millions of men who have died to protect women? Also at least Religion actually gives a voice for the baby/fetus and don't even start saying, “It's my body so my choice”. I'm not a mind reader, but you can't have a baby without sperm so it's not only your choice.

*The present day problems of juggling family employment and domesticity and old age without large families to provide.

Of course caring for a family and a career will be hard, the original women’s right movements gave a choice, but Feminism said you can have both. But are you actual blaming Religion for that? However I didn't know it was Religion’s fault that you’re getting old? Well that's a first...

Since time is so important for you, I tell you the outcome of this debate. You will push it to Religion because you think you can win, I will push it to Feminism because I think I can win. The debate will become that of the First World War, a stalemate. After which I will probably get banned since you will likely post more about Feminism.

You know if you want a rational argument about Feminism, I will give you a rational argument. You provide the points, and we will debate. It doesn't even have to be public.

Thank you for the links. When I get the chance to read 'The Role of Religion on Education' and 'A Challenge to Religion on Health' I will.
Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,600
I really hope lots of women read this ridiculous post. Seeing is believing.
Don't imagine I want to waste hours reading and responding to your posts, You are welcome to believe whatever you want, just leave me out.

Oh Dear. Poor old Teskobiggrin
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Founded Mar 27, 2006

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