The London Atheists Meetup Group Message Board Atheism and Politics › Does Atheism encompass or reflect Right-Wing Political values? Not IMO. (1)

Does Atheism encompass or reflect Right-Wing Political values? Not IMO. (1)

Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,453
You ask - "Since when is democracy a part of this discussion?"

That says it all. I don't know whether to laugh or cry
confused
government, political policies, informed decision making . . . . . . . . .

Fortunately we don't have to agree, EOS llort
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llort
user 81330842
London, GB
Post #: 14
China is a good example of how capitalism can benefit people without democracy. The standard of living in China has risen greatly in the past few decades as a result of economic reforms. China remains a one-party dictatorship but the people are now much better off.
Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,459
Your knowledge and understanding of China's long history is seriously lacking. I suggest you do not rely on the British version of events and take a look at the disreputable history of British involvement in exploiting a country that was advanced when we were living in mud huts. The arrogance and hubris of those who supposedly speak for all the British people makes me cringe.
A former member
Post #: 14
IIlort.
As a radical for capitalism as you appear to be also, I defend capitalism on moral grounds as opposed to the purely practical grounds put forward by the laissez-faire economists, mostly of the Austrian school, such as Hazlett, Hayek, Von Mises, Vera Smith, etc.

I thus defend capitalism on purely philosophical grounds as the moral ideal for mankind.

Only capitalism preserves individual freedom by eliminating the initiation of force, be that individual to individual, group to group, nation to nation or government to its citizens. No one under capitalism exchanges goods or services under the point of a knife, a club, or a gun.

Capitalism is based purely on rational self-interest and that encourages not only survival, but growth......financially, economically and intellectually. It is the polar opposite of the altruism promulgated by all religions, ie., self-sacrifice. Altruism is the prime evil in this world and religions not only support it, they actively encourage it with their life-after-death myths.

So, Sue M, I am completely at odds with your praise for altruism. Mother Theresa has no place in my heart, I preferred Bill gates (when he was a business hero, before giving his money away!).

Paul Ellis
Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,469
Capitalism is built on selfishness, elitism and ultra-competitiveness that leads to a rat race society and your notion that it "eliminates the intiating of force" given the history of Western Capitalism (The US has bombed more than 21 countries since the second world war, and its financial 'success' relies on the massive prophets from the arms industry.

So Paul, I am completely at odds with your views & think you are irrational to the extent of being deluded.
& I do not intend to waste any more of my time responding to your posts.
llort
user 81330842
London, GB
Post #: 15
Sue M:

So you are opposed to the idea of individuals having freedom yes? You want individuals to be governed by an authority yes? Is such an idea not implicit in organized religion? Are you not opposed to organized religion?

I rest my case.
Sue M
sue.mayer
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 3,476
"So you are opposed to the idea of individuals having freedom yes? You want individuals to be governed by an authority yes? Is such an idea not implicit in organized religion? Are you not opposed to organized religion? "

I rest my case.

These are your words, that in no way reflect my ideas.

I am opposed to authority based on the power and wealth of a few individuals. Elitism and privilege is no basis for democracy in which influence, wealth that buys privilege, secularism, freedom of information that is honest and objective, freedom of expression and access to public debate.

Your line of 'thinking' is not only dishonest, it is a silly invention.

A former member
Post #: 15
Sue. Are you claiming that the United States of America was a capitalist country when it entered into several wars of attrition, and that was the reason?
America has never been truly capitalist. The only time it ever came close was at the turn of the century. Ever since then it has slowly turned itself against capitalist principles and is now becoming a socialist nation more akin to the European model.
I strongly suggest that you research the history of capitalism and how it brought millions of starving wretches scratching a bare subsistence in the fields to owning cars, warm houses, nutritious food, freedom from disease and modern technology, such as we are using right now to communicate with each other.
Can you even begin to imagine an I-phone dreamt up by some socialist committee.......a people's phone, let's say?
Open your eyes, look around you for the first time in your miserable life. Look at everything from cornflakes. to milk, to refrigerators, central heating, double glazing, paint, wallpaper, electricity, the clothes you are wearing, your make-up perhaps, even your hair cut. Not one of these fell from the sky, they were all created by some "Selfish elitist" who wanted your cash! So go and grow your own corn, make your own corn flakes, milk your own cow, design, build and test your own fridge, etc., etc.
Don't even get me started on the immorality of the NHS!

Back to religion, though. All religions promote Altruism and self-sacrifice as the moral ideal. I do not and that is why I loathe them, apart from and in addition to the fact that I have no mystical beliefs whatsoever myself.

Oh, and by the way, I don't believe in democracy either, as it is just as evil. It is pure tyranny by the majority and I do not support tyranny in any form, either by an individual, a group or even a whole nation.
Simon H.
simon
London, GB
Post #: 28
It seems as though the discussion has been sidetracked into the correctness of a political view and away from the topic in hand. I hoped this wouldn't descend into an ideological fight over political philosophy.

Paul, the blanket belief in the correctness of an unadulterated capitalist system does imply a dogmatic belief. The strength of language and demonizing of alternate political viewpoints, including altruism, does seem to be extreme, bordering on the zealotry. This does emphasis my point that atheism doesn't lead to a political viewpoint but lays bear the underlying bias of the individual.

- To imply anything other than all out capitalism is by definition communism is a straw man argument and can be dismissed out of hand.
- To suggest that capitalism and pure self interest alone will produce the greatest good is an assertion without evidence, an ideology.
- Democracy as the majority rule and is tyranny of the minority is also a straw man. Democracy or representation of the people 'Demos' is defined against tyranny and is about representation, different voting systems are more or less effectiveness with subjective fairness, depending on how fairness is defined. Disagreeing with the legislation brought about through a democratic system does not make it tyranny.
- You also assert that capitalism does not produce monopolies without proper evidence. A lot of industries have a huge barrier to entry and favour the incumbent supplier to a huge extent. This can be used to price gouge new entrants out of the market. The companies can also use an established war chest from one market to eliminate competitors from another market. Pure capitalism also allows companies to act as cartels and price fix markets. Pure capitalism allows collusion in financial systems to artificially fix exchange rates and commodity prices.

Yes capitalism does bring benefits, but so does social responsibility. As with most things it's not a black and white issue
A former member
Post #: 16
Simon,
I entirely agree with your comment that this thread has gotten away from its original starting point. It shouldn't have drifted away from the original premise.

As far as my views are concerned, I do not subscribe at all to dogma, I only ever look at the evidence. As for straw men.....no comment!

One only has to compare East and West Berlin prior to their integration, for one thing. That offers but the latest example of the failed experiment, for that is exactly what socialism represents.........a line of experiments in social engineering. Capitalism has created the highest standards of living ever known on earth. The evidence is incontrovertible. Society, like econonomics cannot be engineered.
My moral justification for capitalism is not that is produces a "common good", but that it is the only system consonant with man's nature qua man and that its ruling principle is justice.

When I say capitalism, I mean a pure, full, totally unregulated, uncontrolled laissez faire system. with total separation of state and economics, in the same way and for the same reasons we have a separation of the church and the state.

Yes, black and white it is. There seems to exist today an all-pervasive cult of moral greyness which you yourself subscribe to. This is the very reason for the mixed economy we see today.
You yourself said, " Yes capitalism does bring benefits, but so does social responsibility. As with most things it's not a black and white issue."

The idea of the mixed economy obliterates capitalism and its true benefits, being a mixture, as it is of capitalism and statism.........freedom and controls. A mixed economy represents a nation in disintegration, which this country now is, as is Europe, America, et al. A mixed economy is rule by pressure group and that is where your so-called "monopolies" spring from.

A coercive monopoly is a business concern that can set its prices and production policies independent of the market, with total immunity from competition, from the law of supply and demand. Without government assistance this would be impossible to achieve.

I suggest that you have no real understanding of free market principles or of actual history and you should do your research, instead of making sweeping statements based on your emotions as an alternative to that of your intellect, which you obviously possess a great deal of, but refuse to engage in this instance.

Boy is this black or white, I should say so!
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