London Futurists Message Board Events/Meetups › New Meetup: Cryonics UK, One Year On - An update from David Styles

New Meetup: Cryonics UK, One Year On - An update from David Styles

David W.
dw2cco
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 52
sorry all but this has actually made me quite angry and determined to do something about it - Gut feeling is telling me that this is something that should be exposed as a con and refunds given back. I know you can't stop people believing in stuff that isn;t tru and even paying a lot for it but that don't make it right.
If Im wrong i'm wrong but I am asking some people I know to look into this and If cryonics uk is a scam its gonna get some exposure it doesn;t like.

cryingangry


Blimey. Richie, be careful not to blow a gasket smile

If you call something a "con" it implies that the people behind it know that it doesn't work, and that they're looking for "suckers" to believe something they don't believe themselves.

They would be like the snake oil salesmen, who knowing exaggerate the potential curative powers of whatever new treatment they're selling.

But as I've said before, I know quite a few people who are part the leadership of a cryonics organisation, and I categorically refute that allegation. They are clearly sincere.

That leads to a second possible objection. Not that they are knowingly fraudulant, but that they are naive and misguided, since they are believing in something that has no significant chance of working.

But I don't accept that objection either. Cryonics *could* work. I would put a *much* higher probability on cryonics working than on, say, psychic mediumship or crystal therapy.

To put a number on it: if think that if someone is cryonically suspended, using the best procedures currently available, the probability of them being revived at some time in the future is somewhere between 10% to 50%. For me, that's certainly worth taking a gamble.

But note my proviso, using the best procedures currently available. As far as I understand it, paying Cryonics UK the monthly fee increases the likelihood of better procedures being applied to you, quickly. But there's no guarantee. The point of increasing the strength (and capability) of the Cryonics UK organisation is to push this probability higher.

That brings me to a third objection. Not that the people involved are con artists. Nor that they are technologically naive. But rather, that they are organisationally deficient. And for me personally, that is the biggest worry. It chimes with the viewpoint that Mike Darwin (former Alcor president) shared with a couple of H+UK meetings over the last two years. For example, one of Mike's presentations was entitled "How cryonics has failed". But the subtitle of the presentation is worth noting too, "and how to fix it".

Despite the organisational issues of the cryonics movements, I believe that they are capable of significant improvement.

What's more, I believe you'll find that if you talk to people who are signed up for cryonics, you'll see that they tend to share most of the views I've listed above (though, naturally, with some variations).

As for the questions you listed, I think they are good questions, and hope that you'll get an answer from Cryonics UK (you should forward them there).
Dirk B.
user 9941666
London, GB
Post #: 137
Since I don't have the spare money, I'm placing my faith in a Singularity around 2030CE.
Failing that - Quantum Immortality!
A former member
Post #: 432
LOL - prehaps I git a little over the top there - but I am still pretty annoyed with this cryonics cult bollox - Its not right and I have to say that Grahams prompt reply has done nothing but reinforce my belief that this is a souped up ponzi scheme.

- Here it is 100% unedited:

> Hi there
>
> I may be interesteed in joining the organisation - just got a few
> questions which are not on your FAQ
>
> 1. If you decide to opt out of cryonics at a later date do all my
> monthly installments get returned to me?

No, the money is spent on the suspension proceedure, but it is also spent on running costs and equipment update, so we cannot return any subscriptions.


> 2. If you miss payments am I still covered or do you hold it against
> me till i make back payment?

We take a fairly relaxed attitude to missed payments and wouldn't hold it against you or expect back payments if there was a good reason for missing payments.


> 3. Do my family get refunded/compensated if your "trained staff" mess
> up my temp freeze?

No, we are not professionals and there are no guarantees we just do the best we can.


> 4. What compensation do you pay out on messing up my small chance of
> being revived?

See above.


> 5. How much do you expect will my monthly payments rise over the years
> in line with inflation?

I imagine it would be in line with inflation. We have no plans to increase the subscriptions at present.


> 6. I'm 33 and could end up paying for this for 50-60 years - do i get
> discounts for lifetime membership?

We have no policy for doing this at present.


> 7. If I join at £15 a month can you tell me exactly how its spent in %
> - like for training, cryo stuff and insurance.

I usually do accounts every 6 months or so, and you are welcome to have copies.


> 8. You say non-for-profit but if your not making some profit how do
> you garuntee to still be around at my possible
> death 50-60 years hence?

As I said before there are no guarantees. We are basically a self-help group consisting of volunteers, but we need subscriptions to pay for medications and the running of the ambulance etc.


>
> I would be grateful for any answers/reassurance before I take the
> plunge on what looks like a long term relationship with your company.

The best way to obtain this would be to come along to the next meeting/training session to see what we are about and how we are organised. There is no charge and no commitment expected. The next meeting is in July in Sheffield. You would learn most by getting there when we start at 11.00 a.m. and staying all day, but if you can't do that just come when you can and leave when you want too - we are quite friendly and don't turn anyone away.

Graham


So there you have it from the horses mouth so to speak - We are basically a self-help group consisting of volunteers, but we need subscriptions to pay for medications and the running of the ambulance etc. - we are not professionals and there are no guarantees we just do the best we can.NO REFUNDS - "No, the money is spent on the suspension proceedure, but it is also spent on running costs and equipment update, so we cannot return any subscriptions."

Probably not illegal as they don;t claim to make any garuntees - basically its like joining a pay by membership club for stretching (yoga) or learning homeopathy. If people really are mis-guided enough to think that they have chance of between 10-50% of future revival then - All I can really do is attempt to educate them on the subject in the book i'm writing and on this forum.

So here are my scientifically backed home truths about cryonics before you invest in it:

1. To revive somebody you are specualting that future unproven by physics technology (eg drexler's nano) will be able to do it for you no bother - Read some history books about the promise of things to come with victorian tech and Take off 80% of your chance
2. Nobody has been successfully revived yet - Take off another 10% for using untested technology
3. Ice crystal damage to your neurons and calcium deposits other protiens - Take off another 9% for hoping a hamburger can turn back into a cow.
4. Currently Cryonics is not suspended animation - it is in essence a alternative to burial which preserves the flesh for potentailly a very long time - so take off another 0.999999999999999999% for thinking that a future society after fixing all the cell damage blah blah will be able to pump some kind of "life-force" into you and make you alive

Chance on your potentailly £100K gamble of payoff - 0.00000000000000000000001% Slightly more than 0% - please feel free to tell me if any of those facts are wrong because I would love to play poker with someone like you - I suppose you also think you can get a royal flush every deal???
David W.
dw2cco
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 53
Graham's answers seem reasonable to me. He's stating the facts clearly, and it's up to people to make their own decisions.

Probably not illegal as they don;t claim to make any garuntees - basically its like joining a pay by membership club for stretching (yoga) or learning homeopathy. If people really are mis-guided enough to think that they have chance of between 10-50% of future revival then - All I can really do is attempt to educate them on the subject in the book i'm writing and on this forum.

So here are my scientifically backed home truths about cryonics before you invest in it:

1. To revive somebody you are specualting that future unproven by physics technology (eg drexler's nano) will be able to do it for you no bother - Read some history books about the promise of things to come with victorian tech and Take off 80% of your chance

I spent four years of my life studying the history and philosophy of science. The history of science shows, as you say, that breakthroughs often take longer than people hoped or expected. However, someone who bets on cryonics is not betting that these breakthroughs will happen in a given period of time (eg, in the next 30 years). They're just betting that the breakthroughs will happen eventually - eg 30, 50, 100, 200, 400 years...

And the history of science backs up such a hope.


2. Nobody has been successfully revived yet - Take off another 10% for using untested technology

Err, the process will be that there won't be attempts to revive cryonically suspended humans until revivials have been successfully demonstrated with rats, dogs, monkeys. The process will be much more tested, when it is applied.

There have already been tests in which individual animal organs have been removed from the host animal, cryonically suspended, then revived, and then re-implanted successfully. The evidence is far from complete yet, of course, but it's wrong to say none exists. As time passes, the evidence will probably get stronger and stronger.


3. Ice crystal damage to your neurons and calcium deposits other protiens - Take off another 9% for hoping a hamburger can turn back into a cow.

But, but, but!
The whole point of the cryonic suspension process is to prevent the organ being destroyed (turned into a hamburger, as you say). Yes, if the suspension goes badly, or the storage experiences problems, the organs may degrade in a way that's irreversible. But it's possible that the suspension will be good enough, and the storage will be good enough.


4. Currently Cryonics is not suspended animation - it is in essence a alternative to burial which preserves the flesh for potentailly a very long time - so take off another 0.999999999999999999% for thinking that a future society after fixing all the cell damage blah blah will be able to pump some kind of "life-force" into you and make you alive

This point 4 adds nothing new to your previous points.

I stick with my broad assessment of a 10-50% probability of success (at the present time).
A former member
Post #: 433
we can agree to diasagree no problem - in fact I am glad you have joined in the debate.
But i would like to see how you think it has 10-50% chance of success. That seems a pretty generous offer and I would love to be privy to the same information you have because It sounds to me like you have good sources.

One cryonics patient I saw being frozen by Alcor had been clinically dead for 21 hours before vitrification - I know the clinical term for dead has changed though technological advances but not to the point when we can even imagine how to bring back people from death after 21 hours and rigormotis setting in. Do you not think the same rules are going to apply in even 1000 years what about even a million? Dead is dead these people are not having there lives "interupted" by cryogenic suspension they are dead bodies deep frozen with all sorts of damage - whether through the freezing process or their ailments.
So to sell this technology even through a non-for-profit basis and having tight books and no garuntees doesn't make it any less of a scam. Its just that like homeopaths and tarot-card readers, cryonics-enthusiasts are still selling something that isnt real that you can prove with science. Its basically just belief in hypothetical future technology being able to cure death. At £100,000K + £180 a year thats a very expensive yogurt weaving class - you must see that at least.

On the other hand the science of cryobiology HAS sucessfully after nearly 40 years of research - frozen a rabbits kidney, thawed it out and managed to get it work inside a rabbit.
So instead of investing your money in this peusudoscientifictranshumanistSCAM! - sink your bucks into cryobiology and prehaps we can finally work out how to do cryonics properly.
What do you think - or is this just again the old H+/S+ bullheadedness of "fXck science you can't tell us whats possible" again...
David W.
dw2cco
Group Organizer
London, GB
Post #: 54
we can agree to diasagree no problem - in fact I am glad you have joined in the debate.
But i would like to see how you think it has 10-50% chance of success. That seems a pretty generous offer and I would love to be privy to the same information you have because It sounds to me like you have good sources.

One cryonics patient I saw being frozen by Alcor had been clinically dead for 21 hours before vitrification - I know the clinical term for dead has changed though technological advances but not to the point when we can even imagine how to bring back people from death after 21 hours and rigormotis setting in. Do you not think the same rules are going to apply in even 1000 years what about even a million? Dead is dead these people are not having there lives "interupted" by cryogenic suspension they are dead bodies deep frozen with all sorts of damage - whether through the freezing process or their ailments.

Before jumping to conclusions, please re-read what I said earlier: "if someone is cryonically suspended, using the best procedures currently available, the probability of them being revived at some time in the future is somewhere between 10% to 50%". If there's any significant delay between clinical death and vitrification, then of course all bets are off.


On the other hand the science of cryobiology HAS sucessfully after nearly 40 years of research - frozen a rabbits kidney, thawed it out and managed to get it work inside a rabbit.
So instead of investing your money in this peusudoscientifictranshumanistSCAM! - sink your bucks into cryobiology and prehaps we can finally work out how to do cryonics properly.
What do you think - or is this just again the old H+/S+ bullheadedness of "fXck science you can't tell us whats possible" again...

If you keep on injecting vitriolic language like SCAM into this discussion, I'm going to leave this site. I've got far better things to do with my time.

Can you point to even one instance when a supporter of H+ has said "fXck science"? You're creating fantasies in your own mind, and risking driving yourself mad as a result.
A former member
Post #: 438
OK maybe i have been using the old colloquial speech too much and for that i apologise - Obviously this is a subject which is a bit too close to heart so I will leave my opinions on it being a scam until I can prove it.

I don;t want to upset you at all - but I am really suprised that YOU (who I actually quite look up to) , thinks this is a subject worth endorsing. I am researching this particular subject (cryonics) very seriously, pro and skeptical views and I find it hard to believe that anybody unless misguided or very desperate would consider it as a option. Obviously I am completely wrong and must be missing something in the details but from my perspective even the best cryonic methods available don't give me the result 10-50% even when I am being really generous its not even a whole number. It does anger me that cryonics companys are even allowed to operate but then again I'm not too chuffed with BP at the moment either!
Sure- I could be wasting my time getting angry about something i can do nothing about but that hasn;t stopped me before and it won;t in the future (thats one prediction which is 100% cert)!

My general opinion that H+/S+ supporters have the opinion "fXck science" is due to what I have noticed - If the science doesn't work for their theorys enthusiasts just shrug and seem to say "we will be able to work that out in the future and people have said that man could never fly and look at us know" or "the reason this guy isn;t taken seriously by the scientific establishment is because his idea's are so revolutionary". One of the problems with that sort of thinking is that over-optimisism about hypothetical technology is NOT good science. Another problem I see is that some people seem to have "followers" who hang on every word and get upset when their ideas are challenged and say that the scientific establishment is persecuting their chosen phrophet which is why they can't get funding for research. So as a result after i have got behind some of the science behind the theorys the H+/S+ philosphers have my conclusions are that generally they don;t give two hoots to laws of physics or human biology and will wave their arms frantically if questioned on it.

OK not exactly "fXck science" but the attitude is pretty much the same you will have to forgive this layman for saying whats on his mind. One of my problems is that I do tend to open my mouth quicker than I think but don;t like to take back what I said as I think it makes me a more genuine person - Anger is the energy of the young and should never be confused with insanity. Prehaps when you were in your early 30's david you used to get on your soap box as quickly as I - or maybe its because I am just a bit of a extremist! Surely better me having a crack at cryonics is better than causing trouble in chalk farm after a few drinks as so many of my peers enjoy.

Anyway - sorry if i offended you, tone of voice is still something we can't transmit over this forum but sarcasm is hardly witty either and that is what I am guilty of in my last post - confused If its any consolation I do feel bad about this - me and my mouth....

Your a great guy David and I am a angry young chef lets leave it at that.....
Jonathan
Im-not-a-number
London, GB
Post #: 148
Ignoring Mr Styles's "scheme", and concentrating on more practical efforts; it seems that Scientists researching suspended animation have released a new paper hinting at a way to improve the survival odds of trauma victims and people undergoing major, risky surgery.

Biologist Dr. Mark Roth, based at a Seattle cancer laboratory, got interested in suspended animation after looking at several cases where this has occurred spontaneously in humans.

One well-known case is that of Canadian toddler Erica Nordby, who wandered outside in the winter of 2001 wearing only her nappy. In the bitter cold her heart stopped beating for two hours and her body temperature plunged to just 16°C before she was rescued, warmed - and came miraculously back to life, despite having literally frozen to death.

In another case a Japanese man, Mitsutaka Uchikoshi, fell asleep on a snowy mountainside in 2006. He was found 23 days later with a core body temperature of just 22°C. He too was successfully reanimated having suffered no appreciable ill effects.

Roth and colleagues wondered how it is that some people can enter a state of frozen suspended animation and then recover from it safely, whereas usually such a change of body temperature is fatal.

The researchers now think they may be on the path to an answer, having learned how to perform the same trick reliably with other lifeforms; in this case yeasts and nematode worms.

Yeasts and worms, like humans, will normally just die if they are chilled down past a certain point. But Roth and his colleagues have found that if the organisms are starved of oxygen before being cooled, they will go into suspended animation from which they recover on warming, and go on to live normal yeasty or wormy lives.

Roth and his colleagues believe their work could lead to techniques that would let paramedics or doctors "buy time" for severely injured or ill patients by putting them into suspended states like those achieved by Nordby and Uchikoshi. Then, once the underlying problem has been fixed, they could be reanimated.

Full details of the research are published online ahead of publication in the journal Molecular Biology of the Cell.

Dirk B.
user 9941666
London, GB
Post #: 160
http://tinyurl.com/2w...­

"Mark Roth, a biochemist at the Fred Hutchinson Cancer Center, has been working on suspended animation — inspired by the processes of animal hibernation — for years now. In 2005, with funding from Pentagon far-out research arm Darpa, Roth managed to reanimate rats suffering from massive blood loss, using hydrogen sulfide to knock them out and curb their oxygen consumption.

Since then, Roth has made significant progress. His hydrogen sulfide procedure has completed phase 1 of the three clinical trials required before FDA approval. And he’s moved onto a new, related method that could boost trauma survival even more effectively..."

Dirk B.
user 9941666
London, GB
Post #: 195
A new and promising approach:
http://giulioprisco.b...­

"The Brain Preservation Foundation has been established to promote serious scientific research in the field of brain preservation for long-term static storage. Its goal is to spur development of a hospital surgical procedure which can reliably and demonstrably preserve the structural connectivity of 99.9% of the synapses within a human brain. Existing scientific literature suggests that such a goal should be readily achievable by extending (via vascular perfusion) existing laboratory protocols for the chemical fixation and plastic-embedding of small pieces of brain tissue. If such a surgical procedure were available in hospitals it could provide interested persons a means of avoiding death and reaching the distant future. One of the first initiative of the Foundation is the Brain Preservation Technology Prize, a prize for demonstrating ultrastructure preservation across an entire large mammalian brain verified by a comprehensive electron microscopic survey procedure.
...
According to Hayworth, a chemically preserved, plastic-embedded brain can be losslessly subdivided in strips that can be imaged at nanometer resolution by current technology. This resolution is sufficient to image the smallest brain structures which, according to current scientific knowledge, are the physical substrate of our thoughts, memories, feelings, emotional responses, hopes, dreams and identity. It is important to stress that this can be done with current technology, and Hayworth cites experimental results to prove it."
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