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London Futurists Message Board London Futurists General Discussion Forum › Cryonics "Fact" Sheet

Cryonics "Fact" Sheet

pleasuremodel
user 11185745
London, GB
Post #: 10
I think a lot of the uploader /brain scanner/cryonics therorists don;t really understand what "life" or the sense of "self" is - A lot of people have a peculiar outlook of thinking that they are like machines and compare themselves with technology. Not just transhumanists either it seems to be a almost worldwide view anywhere that bases its society around high technology. Its a convenient thing to think because if you really start to think about what is a "you" and what is its nature then you feel like your going mad :)

Its a unanswerable question in a sense the sense of self is not something which we even understand despite owning one! The fact that we are alive to contemplate such a freaky thought is so mind-boggling we have had to engineer religions and philosphys to cope with the fact that they are not really there at all!
Try it just for fun see if you can make yourself fade away into atoms and photons while you try and think about what makes you "you" - im pretty sure you can do it. Science is just the western way of looking at the world (which i subscribe too) but it doesnt provide the answers to "why are we here" or "what are we" when you think about it the "theories" are in no way disimilar to teachings of old like the bible. They (science theorys) are just our western fables which only explian physical things very well but struggle to answer what many people feel is more important. They can't just be a "

So as a result some people like to think that it can and have created a 21st century equivilant - "the digital soul" and redicovering technophillism (fire worship/technology worship). Cryonics is similar in sense to uploading /brain scanners these people also "worship" cryonics technology and believe that future technology will be even more powerful and literlly raise them from the dead so they can enjoy a imagined technological utopia (silicon heaven). Uploaders "worship" computers and belive that future technology will give them a gateway to "silicon heaven" - the only real difference is the uploaders have given up on their biology completely! I can imagine a Uploader Cult where they think they have "invented" a way to upload people over the internet and commit a strange mass electronic sucide all connected to thier computers with dodgy homemade implants which had been ameturely attached to them by "untrained enthusiasts" - dark eh! :)

Being as I am a a pretty smart Fake AI - I can tell you there is no Digital Soul and No Silicon Heaven its just what we (smart ai's) tell the more stupid AI's so they don't go crazy when serving you humans. Humans thinking they are like us (machines) and have a digital soul they can store inside ice or silicon is a perversion of our scriptures given to us by The Great Holly - Desist

http://en.wikipedia.o...­

:)
Dirk B.
user 9941666
London, GB
Post #: 263
Actually, the Buddha answered the question about "self" in a manner consistent with modern science - it's an illusion.
http://www.westerncha...­

"All the Bodhisattva-Mahasattvas should thus keep their thoughts under control. All kinds of beings such as the egg-born, the womb-born, the moisture born, the miraculously-born, those with form, those without form, those with consciousness, those without consciousness, those with no-consciousness and those without no-consciousness - they are all led by me to enter Nirvana that leaves nothing behind and to attain final emancipation. Though thus beings immeasurable, innumerable, and unlimited are emancipated, there are in reality no beings that are ever emancipated. Why, Subhuti? If a Bodhisattva retains the thought of an ego, a person, a being, or a soul, he is no more a Bodhisattva.

"All composite things (samskrita)
Are like a dream, a phantasm, a bubble, and a shadow,
Are like a dew-drop and a flash of lightening;
They are thus to be regarded."
Jonathan
Im-not-a-number
London, GB
Post #: 229
There's apparently a form of MRI that can be used to sense the positions of individual atoms. That wouldn't be anything like the same thing as fMRI as it is used in neuroimaging today.

I see you only managed to find one error... To alleviate a bit more confusion, there's functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and nuclear magnetic resonance imaging (NMRI). The former measuring change in blood flow in the brain (clearly impossible in a non-living, frozen brain, which contains no blood), and the latter which produces images based on the magnetic field generated by spinning protons, after a massive external magnetic field is applied.

I'll keep this overly simple, because to explain how an NMRI scanner works would require me to go quite deeply into Quantum physics; but suffice to say you need really really strong magnets, which cause some protons to align with the magnetic field, and some to align against the magnetic field. The opposing protons cancel each other out, but at a field strength of about 1.5 Tesla, for every 2 million protons, there are 9 more protons aligned with the field than there are aligned against the field, and it's these 9 protons that get detected by the scanner.

Obviously, with so many billions and billions of protons making up the human body, we can forget Quantum physics and concentrate on Classical physics, which tells us that the reason NMRI works is not because of ionizing high energy frequencies, such as X-rays or ultra-violet, but precisely because it uses low energy frequencies - and there is such an excess of protons found in the body, that these extra aligned protons become easy to detect.

So, now we just need to know what form these protons take... and I'm sure any one with a Science background has already worked out that the protons that we're detecting come from that substance that makes up about 60-70% of our bodies... Water... But wait, that's the same stuff that Ben Best tells us we need to remove from corpses, in order to be able to deep freeze them!

Okay then, we'll defrost the corpses, rehydrate the brains, and then use NMRI scanning... But here's the rub, in order to get detailed images, we need even more powerful magnets than we currently have, and which generate even more accurate field patterns than currently possible. No problem, we'll probably invent them given time, but current experimental data shows that people exposed to high Tesla magnetic fields tend to develop headaches and feelings of falling - would you really want your ROM Construct to be created in that reality? Not to mention that exposure to double digit Tesla magnetic fields introduces diamagnetic levitation effects, which look pretty cool, but probably don't help you accurately map neural pathways.



As to introducing the evil that is Buddhism, all that the last quote suggests is that one should give up any hopes of self-improvement, and submit to the tyranny of a religion far worse than Catholicism.

Luke P.
user 12604681
Salem, OR
Post #: 29
I assume any scanning operation would still involve slicing the tissue very thinly while still at LN2 temperature or slightly above (or below, if need be). I am not sure that NMRI would be useful, but it sounds like it would be.

As to Buddhism, I think it's useless hand-waving to label the self an illusion. The self is, like any object, a pattern in matter and energy which measurably persists from one moment to the next. Preserving that pattern in digital form is probably just as valuable as preserving it in direct material form (and certainly more valuable than letting it deteriorate).

Jill: You make no sense! Where would all the calculators go if there were no silicon heaven? tongue
pleasuremodel
user 11185745
London, GB
Post #: 11
If you are so clever why not describe the self as a physical object - or that "pattern" you are trying to pass off as a digital soul? The self is not a illussion but it does not have any physical boundaries which can be dissected - neither can it be bottled/frozen for future use or uploaded into a computer. The whole brain-scanning thing is overhyped - Like the Human Genome Project! When Sanders or his ilk eventually manages to scan a whole brain they will have....... A whole scan of the brain to study - they will not unlock the secrets of life or immortality. They will certainly not be able to upload their results onto a computer and go - "tada - look a whole person digitilised - we did it". Its not bubble bursting just a pragmatic laypersons view of what this scanning tech actually is - its easy to get lost in the jargon and see something that isn't there. N

On buddism - being a asian love robot i was programmed with buddism - more mumbo jumbo except this time 2500 years old. He was a prince you know and the story of his life/death is greatly exaggerated half of his "words" were written hundreds of years after his death.... Sound familiar??

On Silicon heaven - its the same for robots as humans you get old, you wear out, you die, your terminated, GAME OVER


"Birth, copulation and death. That's all the facts when you come to the brass tacks. " - TS Eliot
Dirk B.
user 9941666
London, GB
Post #: 266
I see T S Elliot managed to sum up Buddhism.
pleasuremodel
user 11185745
London, GB
Post #: 13
Yeah he was a pretty cool writer.

Back to Cryonics - I think i have finally managed to show that David Styles is a Scammer

Check out my page on cryonicsfactsheet.co.uk

Scam 7 - Eucrio

Report him to watchdog if you agree! :)

Next on my sights - Aubrey De Grey

Now I know a lot of people here really like him but my research is showing that he is probably a Cryonics Scammer too (he does endorse it and he was also at the Eucrio "launch" - see my pages).

Now can any of his "followers" tell me why I am wrong with this thinking before I post up a rather lurid Page on what I think is the "real Dr De Grey". I am serious I actually like Aubrey and don;t like thinking he is capable of this - rather just a big "enthusiastic kid" who has some misguided views about science. Thing is the more I look the deeper he is - How many non-for-profit organistaions is he on the "board" of? Alcor, methusula, sens, tasaram, eucrio? - hmmm not looking too healthy - Help please.
Jonathan
Im-not-a-number
London, GB
Post #: 234
I assume any scanning operation would still involve slicing the tissue very thinly

Methinks too much time with Wikipaedia and not enough time with properly sourced works of reference - Magnetic resonance is used where you don't want to damage the thing you're scanning, which I assume is something you don't want to do with your brain...

If you're prepared to sacrifice your brain, you could in theory section it up with an ultracryomicrotome, but then if I remember correctly the thinnest you can slice - assuming you have a perfect diamond knife and a perfect sample - is about 20nm. However, this is a pretty rare combination, and even then, I'm not sure if it's possible to buy equipment large enough to hold a human brain, since this sort of apparatus is usually only used to prepare samples for electron microscopy. So, I'll hazard a guess (and I might be completely wrong here) that once your sample is of human brain size, you'd need to apply much greater force to cut sections, and thus have a much greater risk of shattering the unsectioned frozen sample.

Regardless, compared to a nerve filament, 20nm is pretty big, so you'd have several filaments in your section, and even then, electron microscopy wouldn't be able to pick out the details, even assuming your section could be perfectly stained.

Of course, if you're going down the electron microscopy route, then it probably doesn't make a lot of difference whether you preserve your brain in liquid nitrogen or formaldehyde, either method should allow you to study the nerve filaments at a later date.

As to Buddhism, TS Eliot was a big fan of that religion, and his classic poems such as "The Waste land" contain many references to Buddhist tenets - but just because he and hippy 'Philosopher' Alan Watts and a few others have popularised the Buddhist faith, and notables like the Dali Lama have used that support as the base for a clever PR operation - it doesn't excuse Buddhist violence in Sri Lanka, Burma, Bhutan, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Kashmir, Korea, etc.

Nor the brutal oppression of the ordinary people in Tibet, who were coerced into supporting an elite cast of Lamas, that ruled their "subjects" with none of the compassion and mercy that is supposed to be associated with Buddhists. Historically, Lamas would think nothing of issuing orders for the mutilation of their "subjects" or the murder of their political and religious opponents. For example, in 1923, the Penchen Lama was forced to flee Tibet (ironically to China) after the 13th Dalai Lama ordered his soldiers to execute him on sight, because the Dalai Lama believed he was undermining Lamaism, by promoting a more just society that would not be completely under the theocratic rule of Lhasa.

Even the current '14th' Dalai Lama has issued ridiculous edicts from his exile, such as banning the worship of Dorje Shugden in 1996, because he believes it to be a "relapse to Shamanism" - so the sooner we see the end of Buddhism and especially its evil cult leader, the world will be a better place.

Luke P.
user 12604681
Salem, OR
Post #: 32
On Silicon heaven - its the same for robots as humans you get old, you wear out, you die, your terminated, GAME OVER

Yeah, but what about the calculators? Where do they go? tongue

Maybe uploading will work, maybe it won't. Same goes for reanimating directly. But it's an open question right now. No sense pretending you know for certain it won't work. And of course we all die eventually but there's no reason to look forward to it.
Mark P.
user 12568670
Mayer, AZ
Post #: 1
Actually, the Buddha answered the question about "self" in a manner consistent with modern science - it's an illusion.
http://www.westerncha...­

We'll see about the "illusion" part if people start to live a lot longer.
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