*Date Change* Palestine, Israel and Psuedo Democracy. Will there never be peace?

I heard stories that 50 years ago, good people, with good intentions were shouting and chanting 'Free Free Palestine'.... I also heard that 10, 20,30 and 40 years later they were chanting the same slogans with the same gusto.

Today, as terrorism and tyranny beset the innocent people of the largest ghetto and refugee camp in the world (Gaza)  the same voices of anger break out again and although I pray with the best of intentions that I am wrong, I see no hope or reasons as to why, 50 years from now those same voices will not still be shouting 'Free Free Palestine'

We'll be looking to discuss and debate the following:

• The history of modern Israel and the role of Britain in its creation

• The mindset of the media and it's refusal of condemnation with regards to one clear aggressive force.

• Organised Protests- useful or useless?

• The Future. How can we work within the current system or outside of it in order to bring about Justice and Peace? 

Everyone is welcome. We offer a place to talk that is free from judgement so that you can focus of freely on expressing yourself without the fear of people becoming emotional or upset. 

Also, please make sure you have done some thinking and research around the sub questions. If there is anything you would like to see added, removed or modified, you can make suggestions in the discussions page relating to this debate.

Please Please Please, if you cannot make it, don't forget to remove your RSVP or if it's last minute, you can always text (i've left my details below), It's not nice for others to wait around expecting people to turn up.

Umair :[masked]

Any member who doesn't show up on 3 occasions (after having RSVP'd) without getting in touch to let us know will be removed from the group and only allowed back once we are all satisfied that they won't do it again.

We Are Ummatan Wasata- The Balanced People, The Middle People, The Just People.

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  • Rashad

    To anyone interested, please see this upcoming event:-
    Gaza - A Legal Analysis & Response

    Friday 5 September 2014, 18:45 - 20:30
    Abrar House, 45 Crawford Place, W1H 4LP

    1 · September 2

    • Claire K.

      So how did it go last night?

      September 6

    • safiyah

      I thought it was pretty interesting, they approached the topic from an unbiased, legalistic view point so as to be as unemotional as possible because when you get emotional it begins to overshadow the point being made. They highlighted the steps we can take towards our British government in order to have some effect overseas and in the past this has worked and is possibly one of the most important steps forward, be an ongoing, consistent nuisance to your local MP until they change things, demand a clearer and more apt foreign policy and pressure them for effective consequences of breaking international law and equip Palestine with some decent lawyers, that's what I gathered from it. There are flaws in everything but we need a way forward and if no one is going to put forward something better then we have to go with what we've got,

      3 · September 6

  • Umair S.

    Jazakallah Safiyah,

    Great idea. I'm going to try attending a few PSC and FOA meetings over the coming weeks and try to get a better understanding of them and the way they work.

    1 · August 31

  • safiyah

    Thanks Umair it was a great discussion today, I think it'd be a great idea if everyone could write how they'd proactively like to go forward after today. I intend to educate myself more broadly about the situation, keep up to date with boycotts and make it a point to educate friends and family about it inshallah. And be more supportive of events that support Palestine.

    @Marwan I'm interested to know what you would call people that believe and adhere to the old testament and in your view how do Israelis view Jewish converts?

    @Sameer Please keep us up to date with your journey, I think its idealistic to want everyone to go to Palestine, the reality is people aren't going to make that much of an effort. However small and consistent effort will help bring peace and freedom and as ever prayer is an important part of that.

    2 · August 31

    • Claire K.

      After the meeting on the way home on the underground I saw a poster advertising Evita, which some of you may be too young to remember. http://evitathemusica...­ It reminded me of what Marwan said about a multi-level strategy. I am sure if Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote a musical about Palestinians people might rally to the cause. If Muslims had their own Steven Spielberg to direct a sympathetic film about them that would work too. If non-Jews and non-Muslims started talking about their Islamo-Christian heritage instead of their Judeao-Christian heritage you might be further along the road. If Palestinian Arabs spoke in American and English accents like the Israelis, people here might think they are more "our kind of people". You might as well strive for the Caliphate then, because it will take about as long to change social attitudes towards Muslims. It took the Jews *centuries* to become so integrated that so many of them are now part of the British establishment.

      August 31

    • Claire K.

      "And thereafter We [Allah] said to the Children of Israel: 'Dwell securely in the Promised Land. And when the last warning will come to pass, we will gather you together in a mingled crowd.'" [Qur'an 17:104] would suggest that God would smile on the Children of Israel, but only if they fulfill certain conditions, such as government in accordance with His laws. Perhaps Muslims should point this out to Jews at every opportunity to show their solicitude for Israelis.

      August 31

  • safiyah

    Also I think we all need to come together to support all acts of peace and to support the end of all types of oppression with just as much passion as we have for Palestine. Salaams!

    1 · August 31

  • Naila H.

    So true most people are not aware that Orthodox Jews are totally against the way Palestinians are treated, and if allowed would be open to sharing the land. But THEY have bigger plans in tow. Initiate their one world agenda with Israel in the spotlight. I just feel queasy watching the propaganda unfold.

    This link may not have all the answers but it is thought provoking to anyone who feels that something is not quite right with our world.


    August 22

  • Naila H.

    Salam Again Marwan,

    It's not ignorance it's about having a balanced viewpoint based on my own experiences and my own research. It is a little short sighted to suggest all Jews are hateful and praise genocide. It is akin to all Muslims are crazy Arab terrorists! I am aware that controlled opposition is a tactic used by the Elite to misguide people from knowing the full truth, because often it is peppered with falsehood.

    However, amongst those that follow a "cult" are genuine followers of the Torah. In Islam there are also those that masquerade as followers of the religion but they also use hatred and tribal divisions to oppress and confuse its followers. House of Saud are Babylonian followers who pose as Muslims, but we all know there are genuine Muslims living and practicing Islam. My point is you can't generalise every Jew is hateful.

    1 · August 27

    • Claire K.

      Judaism is a religion of ethno-nationalism and Islam is a religion of civic nationalism. If you are an ethno-nationalist, you must logically give preferential treatment to people of your own race. If you are a civic nationalist, you must logically reject the idea of giving preferential treatment to people just because they are members of your race.

      1 · August 28

  • Naila H.

    BTW you misunderstood my closing sentance. I said not all men are the same just like not all Muslims and Jews are the same. You mention the Quran good! we can discuss that when we meet Inshallah

    A link you may care to watch! I'm open minded.



    August 27

  • Naila H.

    Hateful is a strong word to use on a group of people who would be different in shapes and sizes.From what I know of the Talmud teachings which is the opinion and philosophies of thousands of rabbis you are partly correct. They do believe that non Jews are chattel who are to serve them at any cost. However there are those rabbis among them that still follow the Torah the book from one of the Abrahmic religions. These group of people abhor what is going on in Palestine. However you or I will never see that picture from mainstream media or around the world because divide and conquer is the best way to keep men from coming together to do what is right. I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that one.Not all Jews are hateful just like not men are the same.

    August 23

    • Marwan

      Yes it is strong. The Talmud consists of the Mishna (oral talmud) and gemara (commentaries). I am not partly correct, I am fully correct on this. You comment on men shows your own misandry and frankly your ignorance of the problem. Men are bad and Judaism is hateful are not equivalent.

      August 23

    • Marwan

      And I am aware of the groups you mention, but you clearly do not. Naturei Karta are also Talmudic. I'm reality they see Israel as a tactical problem, it is not about justice for Palestinians. Again, I recommend you study the work of Michael Hoffman ll. Or failing that, the Qur'an. Salaam

      August 23

  • Claire K.

    Jews who want a Jewish homeland should see to it that it is a theocracy, or else it will not receive the blessing of Yahweh. Israel to this day remains a secular state, and I have heard it said that Tel Aviv is as gay-friendly as London. This would suggest that Israel is just a Western colonial outpost whose presence and morals are offensive to its neighbours. If all the secular Jews left Israel then the remainder of the Jews who would be prepared to continue living there under the laws of the Old Testament would be so small as to make sharing the land with Palestinian Arabs a viable proposition.

    1 · August 22

  • safiyah

    Salaams, my dissertation is on how the British newspaper portray Muslims and I'm doing quite a bit of it on Israel and Palestine so if anyone comes across any interesting articles please post them below! Looking forward to this!

    August 12

    • safiyah

      Thank you, belated Eid mubarak to you!!

      August 13

    • Kamal R.

      your welcome safiyah. hope you had a good holiday n ill forward you some links to interesting articles

      1 · August 13

  • Umair S.

    Please note Location and Time update. Thanks

    July 26, 2014

  • Claire K.

    Britain admits selling $12 billion in weapons to Israel


    The UK government might be pro-Palestinian if they could get it together to buy British weaponry, one day, perhaps.

    1 · July 19, 2014

    • Sameer A.

      Great article, thanks for sharing that and incredible that yet again they succeed in burying bad news. To take it further though, I really would emphasise that British and American support for Israel has to be viewed as being of ideological origin, as opposed to just financial. There is the stench of Crusader-settler/orienta­list mindset in everything they do! This is proven throught the decades of staunch support for the illegal state even when it was struggling and not offering much of an ROI.

      July 20, 2014

  • Sameer A.

    Looking forward to this very much. Anyone any idea where it will be held?

    July 19, 2014

    • Umair S.

      Looking at somewhere in Central Sameer bro. will hopefully have this confirmed next week

      July 19, 2014

    • Sameer A.

      Great thanks, Umair!

      July 19, 2014

  • Claire K.

    Can't make it because I will be out of town. It is not just Israel and its inhabitants the Great British Public is indifferent to, they are also indifferent to the fact that the British government has ruined people's lives and countries in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria. Imagine how indifferent the Great British Public would be to the Jews being gassed, roasted and deported if they were Germans living in Nazi Germany! Come General Election 2015 how many British voters - Muslim or non-Muslim - will be voting on the basis of the foreign policy of any political party? LibLabConUKIP are all Zionist. Next one down is BNP who are against all the invasions of Muslims lands but whom we also know are unashamedly Islamphobic. The solution must be to make the government consult the British public every time it wants to go to war under the principle of Shura?

    1 · July 12, 2014

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