"New York Philosophy" Message Board › The World-Famous Political Thread

The World-Famous Political Thread

John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 150
Possibly against my better judgment, I am starting an "anything goes" thread for political discussions. Like several other members here, I find myself getting pulled into many different e-mail debates on different political matters. Finally, a couple of us decided to try creating this - a melting pot thread for discussing the hot-button issues of the day. This should be interesting.

Have at it - but be sure to review the rules of the message board. Any overly personal, overly angry, overly nonsensical, or just plain rude posts will be deleted without fanfare.
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 151
The following was written by Ted R:

CALL FOR IMPEACHMENT OF BUSH/CHENEY OVER AND OVER AGAIN

ACTION PAGE: http://www.millionpho...­

It doesn't matter what rock at the White House we turn over. There's nasty stuff under them all. And now just as the subpoenas of accountability are finally starting to fly, they tell us that millions of White House emails, required to be preserved and archived by federal law, have up and disappeared. Or so they now claim. And isn't this yet ANOTHER admission of administration law breaking.

Was it not enough that they lied us into a war that has killed more of our citizens than 9/11 and as many as a million in foreign countries? Was it not enough to conduct illegal wiretapping of our personal communications, while simultaneously swearing they were doing no such thing? Was jeopardizing our national security by outing a key figure in tracking down the REAL weapons of mass destruction, was that not enough? Was an official government policy of torture, to our shame around the world, not enough?

It's just one high crime after another, and either the president is totally not in charge of anything, in which case he should be impeached for that dereliction alone, or all this pipes right through Karl Rove into the Oval office. And whether Cheney is in charge of everything or just half the treason, he's got to go too.

Rosie O'Donnell was speaking for a lot of people when she exclaimed recently, "What do you have to do to get impeached in this country?" But what will make it really happen is when each one of us speaks for ourselves, and we contact our members of Congress to finally demand Constitutional responsibility, and keep doing it again and again.

ACTION PAGE: http://www.millionpho...­

We don't believe for one second that the Bush administration hasn't now, on top of everything else, totally corrupted our federal justice system by requiring selective and wrongful prosecutions of members of the other party as a CONDITION for continued employment as an attorney general. The corruption goes completely to the core of everything our country is supposed to stand for. The last time we checked the Pledge of Allegiance ended with the words "justice for all". You got that, George? ALL! And that means you don't just prosecute non-Bushies and let yourself and your cronies off the hook.

But of course he doesn't get it. He's never going to get it. Instead Bush is going even deeper into tantrum and denial mode, demanding even more and more power to grossly abuse, without any
accountability whatsoever, as if the results of the last election had not even taken place. They think they're just going to plow ahead with new proposed laws to expand domestic surveillance even further, as if all those rubber stamping Senators voted out last November were still around.

He's not going to stop on his own folks. He's incorrigible. And the only force that can stop him is the pressure of public opinion, coming from our individual voices to our members of Congress, to call on them to honor the Constitution and do what should have been done years ago already. We can't wait until 1/2009 to be rid of them.

Impeach the S.O.B. and the vice S.O.B. now.

Please take action NOW, so we can win all victories that are supposed to be ours, and forward this message to everyone you know.
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 152
The following was written by Mitchell:

Ted,

Thanks for this call for impeachment, again. I've signed many. For whatever reason, I grabbed the time to write this, and thought that you might appreciate it, so I?m including it here. Basically it's an outline of why these dangerous men should have been impeached from the beginning, by dint of tampering with voting and election practices. He was guilty before he even moved into the White House!

Lying and overt, purposeful deception, explicitly or by omission by a public official is illegal, not to mention unethical and immoral. This applies to a Senator or a President. All are equal under the law. President's should be held to an even higher standard of impeccability due to the office. This White House, Bush, Cheney, their Cabinet members, Chief of Staff, Press Spokespeople, and on, routinely, from the very beginning of his presidency. At this point, there have been so many areas of deceit and cover-up, it calls for nothing other than immediate, unquestionable impeachment for betrayal of the American People.

The taking of office was the beginning of a provable deception and political sleight of hand--there appears to have been substantial election fraud.

The issue of 9/11, the Bush family being in business with the Bin Laden family, flying Saudis out of the country the day after 9/11, most all the hi-jackers being Saudi, yet he starts a war, not with Saudi Arabia, but in Afghanistan. And then another in Iraq, despite there being NO evidence that Saddam had anything to do with the attack on the U.S. This is madness. The falsifying of information, Cheney's visits to the FBI, these are unprecedented and highly suspicious actions.

Cheney's refusal to disclose the notes of the Energy meetings he had with a criminal Ken Ley, which occurred at the very beginning of the administration.

Then the outing of Valerie Plame and using Scooter Libby as the fall guy, when all fingers point to Rove and Cheney. Jeopardizing the American people and our security by so doing, as well, of course, of putting lives at risk in wars that are uncalled for, but used to help to define a presidency that was unmoored and going nowhere, with a President who took more vacations and spent more time out of Washington than any president in U.S. history. That is impeachable in itself because he was proving his incompetence, then using 9/11 and war to hide behind and trot in an agenda that is contrary to the values and ideals on which our nation is based.

The institution of the Patriot Act, which is anything but patriotic. The institution of the Military Commissions Act, which allows torture, a completely Un-American stance and value. The breaking with the Geneva Convention to which the U.S. is a signatory. The horrors that have occurred at Guantanamo Bay, holding innocent people without charges or trial for years, including children and teenagers. The horrors of the prison scandals in Iraq, the murdering of innocent women, men and children, the lying by the EPA, demanded by the White House about Global Warming and the cover-up that was aired on 60 Minutes for all to see, jeopardizing American and all other lives by so doing; surveillance of Americans illegally--this alone should have had Bush and Cheney impeached, alone! As should have each of the prior offenses named. And this didn't even yet reach into the ominous activity of Gonzalez, the firing of the 8 prosecutors and the lying about the "loss" of the emails relative to this case. Again, blatant lies, no one believes them; they have lost all credibility and are therefore not qualified to hold this high office. They have lost the backing of the American People.

The over-budgeting of the U.S. military, the destroying of healthcare benefits for the elderly, the destruction of our educational system--kids without books, but bombs galore. Cheney's relationship to Haliburton, and its winning no-bid contracts in the billions, yet found to be cheating the U.S. gov't over and over again, and that Cheney's relationship to all this was never investigated but highly suspect. That the evidence of the crime scene--the worst in U.S. history--was cleaned up and shipped off to China before proper investigation and analysis of materials was able to take place. The attempt of this administration to sign into law that people and neighbors, or cable repair men, should 'snoop' on each other; that there is instituted that there be a National I.D. card by May 2008, that our wildlife refuges are jeopardized by big oil interests, that our right to put what we darn well choose into our body's for our own sustenance is being challenged by a corrupted FDA that has allowed the cloning of animals and called it safe when they have NO evidence of such, but that we have an FDA totally committed to protecting the interests of NOT the People who pays its bills but by private interests such as big pharma, the purveyors of Aspertame and the like.

There are many more, including the infiltration by the CIA into newsrooms, the paying for fake news reports, the attempt to politicize and control PBS, the firing of Bill Moyers, and on and on it goes like never before.

Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al have caused so much harm to the American way of life, the reputation of the U.S. and its people, it has lied about almost everything, it has jeopardized our God-given rights and sought to take them away, it has engaged in signing statements which are not provably legal and certainly not ethical, have caused hundreds of thousands of deaths, they have jeopardized the safety of our soldiers by sending them to unwarranted wars and also without proper equipment or gear; they have sought to eviscerate the Constitution and the Bill of Rights all in the name of a vague "terrorist threat" which has Always existed everywhere throughout all of human history, and didn't begin at 9/11, but have used this phrase to destroy the fabric and soul of this otherwise great nation. A terrorist threat is a threat of a content or a people we 'don't like', and it has been used as propaganda to perpetuate fear in the American People, another impeachable offense. This Administration has made sure the George Orwell was right. By Bush and Cheney?s continued lies, no doubt in no insignificant part by the prompting and ?skillful? strategies of their pathological leader, Carl Rove, they have sought to create their own world with its own rules and values, which have little or nothing to do with the American people who by oath, they are legally and morally obligated to serve.

They do not serve us and they have not served us. They have served their campaign funders and the like, only. This is also impeachable in itself. Breaking the law by a President is impeachable. He has broken many, and worse, he has broken the sacred trust of President to the people. They are collectively guilty of staining the soul of the U.S. and bringing us to inches from bankruptcy to boot.

The points for the case are here, and far beyond what I?ve said here. This is just the tip of the iceberg. We must demand that Congress commence impeachment proceedings immediately. It is the only way we can begin, just begin, to restore our integrity as a nation in our own eyes and those of the world.
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 153
The following was written by Marc:

Sorry, we tend to have important jobs, families, responsibilities, often supporting other less fortunate / Liberal relatives financially and have lots of things going on in our lives and we don't have time to constantly defend the leaders of our country to people who hate our leaders and will continue to hate and spew hate no matter what we say. We've tried in the past, you don't agree and you'd rather just stew in negativity and hostility, while we try to understand and support our leaders good intentions and support their efforts even if we don't always entirely agree with the decisions. So basically, there's nothing to be gained by arguing with you so we have better things to do. Unfortunately, you don't.

Anyone who can defend Clinton's pardons to several hundreds of convicted criminals / drug dealers, yet attack our President and his Cabinet constantly on anything and everything is obviously not open minded or fair and balanced on this subject. You guys can continue to bitch and hate and I'll continue working hard and enjoying my life and supporting my (extended) family.

I was about to send this e-mail without even reading below when I decided to read at least the first few sentences below and I laughed as I read the first sentence, which is:

"Lying and overt, purposeful deception, explicitly or by omission by a public official is illegal, not to mention unethical and immoral."

Now doesn't that just scream Clinton????? If you people showed the same sort of outrage at a Democratic politician just once, I might respect your opinions on Republic leaders.

Marc
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 154
The following was written by John Hechtman:

Just a quick bit of logic here - on my way out the door to a client.

Clinton was definitely guilty of some mis-doing:
*He lied under oath about getting a blow job
*He pardoned some felons under questionable circumstances
*Some more relatively small stuff I haven't got time now to explore

Then we have Bush2:
*Started an unprovoked war that has killed 3,000+ Americans, and 600,000+ Iraqis
*Has blatantly stolen TWO presidential elections, by disenfranchising tens of thousands of legitimate voters - and yes, there's plenty of proof...
*All the other reasons listed below, that justify impeachment, and trial before both the US courts, and the World court
*And more, lots more. Read 'Crimes Against Nature' or 'Bushwhacked'. Get some of the real facts

"The Law shall catch the petty felon,
"Who steals the goose from off the Common.
"But let the greater felon loose,
"Who steals the Common from the goose."

So Clinton lied about a blowjob, and Bush (is still) lying about a war that's killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people.
Who do you think is the bigger criminal?

Some of us work just as hard as you do, Marc - maybe harder. But it's not about 'my load is bigger than your load'. It's about trying to preserve what small shreds of freedom, fragments of the environment, and remains of human decency are left us, from attack by people who think that there is no higher good, nor God, than the numbers in their bank accounts. Try eating a dollar bill when you're hungry, drinking it when thirsty, and you may realize that we really are the stewards of this planet, and not its God-given masters. And (collectively) we're doing a piss-poor job...
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 155
The following was written by Mitchell:

Dear Everyone,

The quickest word back: John, thanks for the quick bit of logic?it goes far and quickly says a lot. This isn?t about ?sides?, or is best not being. It?s about alignment with who plays the games of life?politics, business, family, the rest, with a great sense of integrity, compassion for others less fortunate, respect for all sentient life in attitude and action, and being thoughtful planetary stewards. Playing the game of business sustainably and humanely, it is now showing?despite many of us saying this for decades?to be more profitable, not less, creates more good will and less stress/fewer heart attacks. It?s a long-term win with gains all along the way. Seeking out sustainable, renewable resources, planning instead of rushing in for the short-term buck, thinking of others instead of oneself or just one?s own, is the wave of the future.

Now let?s just line up the folks in office and see who plays the game how. The score will speak for itself.

Being in the field of psychology and stress management, I tend toward the longer view and understanding why people are the way they are?how they have come to think one way instead of another, get one disease instead of another, have one set of reactions, attitudes and values instead of another. This allows me to even understand how GW and Cheney got this way. They remain responsible for their actions?heinous as so many are (legislating torture? Promulgating unnecessary and virtually illegal wars? Bankrupting Social Security and the gov?t through military expenditures over the course of a short 6 years?) yet it can also be understood through their early programming how they have come to embrace these heavily defended, infantile, paranoia-based reactions that have jeopardized them all.

Best to you all,

Mitchell
John
broughton
Group Organizer
New York, NY
Post #: 156
The following was written by an anonymous friend of Ted's:

Ted, all these emails prove there is no point in talking about politics (and religion, for that matter)--people simply have their minds made up and won't be swayed by anything someone else says.

That being said, there is so much in them that makes me seethe, I'll put in my two cents (and that's really more than it will be worth in the grand scheme of things.)

1. Any person who can equate Clinton lying about his personal life, with Bush lying us into war, the treasonous outing of a CIA agent, criminally covering it up with a scapegoat ("Scooter" Libby), incompetence on a massive level (Hurricane Katrina and, attacking the wrong country, war profiteering), losing a war, and turning a surplus (created by Clinton) into a record deficit--is a person who cannot be reasoned with.

2. Any person who can defend having the candidate with less votes win--cannot be reasoned with. The Electoral College was instituted by the country's founders because they were afraid of voters directly electing the president. They wanted the Electoral College to directly pick the president. It's purpose was not to have the person with less votes win! Anyone who cares about democracy should be outraged at having the person with less votes win. It is not democracy. I would be just as outraged if it was the Republican who had more votes, but lost. Of course the electoral college should be abolished. I believe this would have been a big issue if not for the shenanigans that went on after the election--which overshadowed the Electoral College issue.

3. To the people who write a massive block of text without the simple courtesy of separating their thoughts into paragraphs: It's difficult to read, and since they don't have either the consideration, or the mental capacity to organize their thoughts, I have no interest in reading it. I'm sure I'm not the only one.
A former member
Post #: 87
Still talking about WJ Clinton's presidency outside of a history analysis deserves the following comment: get over it!!

Writing about GW Bush and impeachment is a waste of time because it requires evidence and not assumption, as well as being political suicide for those idiotic enough to pursue it - but then when do Liberals ever use their minds over emotionalism? [silence] exactly!

The electoral college is one of the foundations that protect America from becoming a democracy. It illustrates a gross lack of understanding of the mechanism that Federalism requires in order to work.

If you want Plato's Republic, then eliminate the EC.
If you want the philsophical father of the United States and the secular West, the father of logic, Aristotle to continue to rule [well barely still] then maintain the EC.

It is a contest between collectivism and individualism. The Framers embraced individualism. It is their political descendents that have morphed in the horrible slippery slope of collectivism,

Finally, America is NOT run by the "will of the people", but by a Constitution and elected representatives. That a majority of the people want "the war in Iraq to end 'NOW' " is simply not relevant, impractical and illustrates a serious lack of comprehension.

Iraq is not Vietnam and there will be serious consequences for such an action.
A former member
Post #: 236
To everybody else I agree he should be impeached.

To David, there is evidence that's your decision not to acknowledge it. Liberals never use their minds they are ruled by emotionalism? At least that makes sense but it still doesn't mean it's true. Clinton was almost impeached for a matter that was his personal life. That's called in my book making up your own rules (about the people who prosecuted him).

America is run by the will of the people. The government, the Constitution and elected representatives all work for the people. It's what the people say. And the people will win.
A former member
Post #: 89
[America is run by the will of the people. The government, the Constitution and elected representatives all work for the people. It's what the people say. And the people will win.]

Working for the people according to set rules and structure is certainly not acting on the will of the people.

What you descirbe is known as democracy, that is, mob rule, somethng the framers learned from Aristotle to be a very unfair and dangerous form of governing.
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