Re: [atheists-619] freedom of speech violated by Police in Pa.(youtube video)

From: Dave D.
Sent on: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 5:24 PM
Rhonda,

I don't understand why you think Badnarik was correct.? Thomas Jefferson was explaining what the 1st amendment meant when he used the phrase "thus building a wall of separation between church and State".? If it's a figment of his imagination, the whole constitution would be a figment of the imaginations of James Madison, etc..? When Badnarik says that he wants people to believe the concept isn't in the constitution because the phrase itself isn't there, which given what Jefferson wrote, is certainly incorrect. (fyi, here's a list of things that aren't in the constitution)

I agree with you that religion should be taught in schools.? As history, sociology, etc.? Not as truth and/or science.? (I don't think we're different than most atheists in that regard)? But, that's very different than posting the 10 commandments, which is an obvious endorsement of them by the school and the government.? Posting the 10 commandments might be ok if we got to post some additional bible verses to go with them, but that's not what anyone is proposing, and the walls of a school aren't really the place for that either.

The bottom line is, if I pay to take a class, I want to learn something.? I don't want to spend my time correcting the instructor and trying to decide which things he says have been corrupted by religious dogma.? But, let us know how it goes.? I'll be really curious how he responds if you do bring up these issues in class...

Thanks for the joke...I think I'll save it for future use...

Dave

On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 11:51 PM, Rhonda Holland <[address removed]> wrote:
Dave,

Sorry for such a late reply but one of my Aunts passed away and the family has been put on death watch for another family member so things are little hectic at the moment and some of my emails fell through the cracks.

Anyway I watched the video clip below and in a way he is right, the separation was a figment of someone's imagination - Thomas Jefferson's.? Anyway what he said in the video is rather mild to me and I have no qualms whatsoever challenging people on the matter of the founding father's religious beliefs (or lack thereof).? It would be nice if I wasn't the only heretic in the room pointing out the fact that every time the matter of injecting religion into the Constitution came up that it was voted down.? So God not being mentioned in the Constitution was not an oversight, the big guy was intentionally left out.

As to having the 10 Commandments posted in schools...? Well I am a different kind of atheist on this matter.? I actually want religion mentioned in schools.? Why?? Because right now kids only hear about "God" in their churches and when in church they are told what to believe and really do not have a chance to question it.? In a school with lots of different religious views kids would state their beliefs and other kids would say "no, it should be this" and it would lead to discussions (and possibly arguments).? Kids would hear all sorts of ideas and notions about God that they would never hear of in their churches and this would hopefully cause them to really question what they are force fed every Sunday morning.

Schools are supposed to be places where thought takes place, churches don't want you to think.? The way I see it is that there are over 32,000 versions of Christianity so even Christians don't agree with one another -- yet when they go to church they never debate their beliefs.? If children were exposed to various notions about what the Bible says/means then maybe a few of them would pick it up and read it -- thus producing more atheists.

Christians don't REALLY want religion in school, they want THEIR religion -- and the joke below kinda nails that point home.? I tell Christians all the time that I have absolutely NO problem posting Bible verses on the school blackboard -- as long as I get to pick them.? (Their tune changes when they read a few Bible verses they never hear about in church -- and of course they never actually pick up the book and read it for themselves.)

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Dear John,

As you know, We've been working real hard in our town to get prayer back in our schools. Finally, the school board approved a plan of teacher-led prayer with the children participating at their own option. Children not wishing to participate were to be allowed to stand out in the hallway during prayer time. We hoped someone would sue us so we could go all the way to the Supreme Court and get the old devil-inspired ruling reversed.

Naturally, we were all excited by the school board action. As you know, our own little Billy (not so little, any more though) is now in the second grade. Of course, Margaret and I explained to him no matter what the other kids did, he was going to stay in the classroom and participate.

After the first day of school, I asked him "How did the prayer time go?"

"Fine."

"Did many kids go out into the hallway?"

"Two".

"Excellent. How did you like your teacher's prayer?"

"It was different, Dad. Real different from the way you pray."

"Oh? Like how?"

"She said, 'Hail Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners...'"

The next day I talked with the principal. I politely explained I wasn't prejudiced against Catholics but I would appreciate Billy bein transferred to a non-Catholic teacher. The principal said it would be done right away.

At supper that evening I asked Billy to say the blessings. He slipped out of his chair, sat cross- legged, closed his eyes, raised his hand palms up in the air and began to hum.

You'd better believe I was at the principal's office at eight o'clock the next morning. "Look," I said. 'I don't really know much about these Transcendental Meditationists, but I would feel a lot more comfortable If you could move Billy to a room where the teacher practices an older, more established religion."

That afternoon I met Billy as soon as he walked in the door after school.

"I don't think you're going to like Mrs. Nakasone's prayer either, Dad."

"Out with it."

"She kept chanting Namu Amida Butsu..."

The following morning I was waiting for the principal in the school parking lot. "Look, I don't want my son praying to the Eternal Spirit of whatever to Buddha. I want him to have a teacher who prays in Jesus' name!"

"What about Bertha Smith?"

"Excellent."

I could hardly wait to hear about Mrs. Smith's prayer. I was standing on the front steps of the school when the final bell rang.

"Well?" I asked Billy as we walked towards the car.

"Okay."

"Okay what?"

"Mrs. Smith asked God to bless us and ended her prayer in Jesus' name, amen just like you."

I breathed a sigh of relief. "Now we're getting some place."

"She even taught us a verse of scripture about prayer," said Billy.

I beamed. "Wonderful. What was the verse?"

"Lets see..." he mused for a moment. "And behold, they began to pray; and they did pray unto Jesus, calling him their Lord and their God."

We had reached the car. "Fantastic," I said reaching for the door handle. Then paused. I couldn't place the scripture. "Billy, did Mrs. Smith say what book that verse was from?"

"Third Nephi, chapter 19, verse 18."

"Nephi what?"
"Nephi," he said. "It's in the Book of Mormon.

The school board doesn't meet for a month. I've given Billy very definite instructions that at prayer time each day he's to go out into the hallway. I plan to be at that board meeting. If they don't do something about this situation, I'll sue. I'll take it all the way to the Supreme Court if I have to. I don't need schools or anybody else teaching my son about religion. We can take care of that ourselves at home and at church, thank you very much.

Best Wishes Always,
Dan
---

Funny to us but show this to a Christian and it really does seem to make an impact.


Rhonda
--
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
- John F. Kennedy


On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Dave D. <[address removed]> wrote:
Hi Rhonda,

Well, I googled him, and separation of church and state, and found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6QOiYgsLkg

If you listen at about the 2:00 minute mark he says separation of church and state is a figment of someone's imagination, and he has no problem with the 10 commandments in schools.

Sorry, but if he doesn't even understand something that basic, he must be just spreading right-wing propaganda.

It's too bad, I really would like to take a course, I wonder if PSU offers one...

Dave

On Fri, Apr 2, 2010 at 10:52 PM, Rhonda Holland <[address removed]> wrote:
Dave,

I am not a member of their group but it states a member must support 7 of the 9 principles, the only one I would not support is #2.

If you google Michael Badnarik, the person who is giving the class, it will give you a good idea of what to expect.? I have caught a few clips of his on YouTube and I am thrilled that he will be in the area.? I don't know his religious beliefs but I love his "No, I will not comply!? Period." speech.? http://www.youtube.com/watc?v=TbNIU2KEz4g

None of the people I know who have signed up are the type to force religion on anyone.? As I said, I got notified about the class via the Ron Paul group and RPers as a general rule want freedom of all types for everyone.? They don't want to tell you how to live your life and don't want the government telling you either.

Good to see there is finally some discussion of the list ? I use to belong to the PA Godless list which had lots of discussion (but also one person who really grated on my nerves).




Rhonda
--
"Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable."
- John F. Kennedy







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