North Texas Objectivist Society (NTOS) Message Board › Man, Economy,and State

Man, Economy,and State

A former member
Post #: 42
To all,
After much thought, I would like to ask you all THE BIG ?
It appers to me that our group mostly all talks about god & how the church is so bad. Yet it seems nobody seems to have a prob with the state. Why is that? Not that I am trying to defend the church, as I am not. If you all do seem to recall a few things in common with Rand. Alomst every book was Man VS The State as the main topic. Atlas, Man VS The State.
We the Living, Man ( woman ) VS The State. Anthem, man Vs The state. Capitalism The Unknown Ideal, how The State should not & can not be running our money. If we indeed are useing Capitalism. With Rand she seems to always to fight The State. She hits god & the Church, but not near as much as The State. Just an idea to kick around a little. Tell me what you guys think.


Jamie
Old T.
OldToad
Group Organizer
Dallas, TX
Post #: 26
For anyone who has not been to our meetings,

I think our group actually talks about a very wide range of topics. We generally take Ayn Rand's writings and Objectivism as the background context for our discussions. While some of us have subdivided into a smaller group to talk about religion and church organizations, most discussions have actually been about other topics.

For example, we have had discussions about college education, Montessori education, current events, politics, raising children, vacation stories, scuba diving, aquariums, cooking, recent movies, favorite music, wine tasting, home design, horses, patents, career choices, etc., etc., etc. And I would also welcome talking about the problems with government in our lives.

We are trying to provide a very comfortable environment for people to meet, mingle freely, and find others of personal interest. We've usually spontaneously divided into and moved among several subgroups of 2-8 people. So no one has to participate in a discussion that does not interest them at the time. And no one has to talk to lots of strangers at one time or sit in a big circle. It's much more friendly and intimate than that.

For many people, Ayn Rand's works and Objectivism are the comfortable and understood context for all the other more concrete, current, and personal topics that come up in life.

We hope you will consider meeting with us, to see for yourself the wide range of topics on which we can relate with Objectivism as our context, and please feel free to raise any topic that may be of personal interest to you.

Todd.
A former member
Post #: 43
Todd,
I agree, all topics should & ought to be on the table,
as many know I'll talk about anyting. I was just wondering why after 4 meetings, god seems to be the big topic at hand. When 90% of Rands fiction work deals with the state. We have yet to have a talk about freedom from the state. I stoped going to church after I read Rand, yet the state has an impact in my life every day. The church has very little impact on my life. The main reason why is I do not go, nor give them money. I just find that a little odd thats all. That a Rand group seems to never talk about what she wrote about the most. Man Vs The State. That is also why she left her home, the U.S.S.R. Not because she disagreed with the commies about god. She did not disagree with them at all on that. Because she did not agree with them about the state. She came to a nation full of god so to speek. Running from the state. Just wanted to point out a few things. Not trying to offend anyone. Just thought I'd ask.

Jamiebiggrin
Old T.
OldToad
Group Organizer
Dallas, TX
Post #: 28
Jamie,

I am simply trying to correct any impression from your postings that "our group mostly all talks about god & how the church is so bad" or that "god has been the big topic at hand." If anyone talks about this, or wants to talk about the proper role of the State in life or how bad our government is, that is fine.

My concern is that others out there, who have not had the benefit of attending one of our meetings, may be put off from meeting with us if they think this is all we talk about.

As the host, I would like to point out that I have been at every meeting to date and I have made an effort to circulate among the various subgroups at our large meetups. I would agree that in the subgroups you have participated in, perhaps partly because of your particular interests, this has been a big topic, but not in the other subgroups nor in the meeting you missed last week. In fact, I have been extremely pleased by the great diversity of discussion topics.

Looking forward to seeing you at our next meeting,

Todd A.
A former member
Post #: 44
Todd,
I understand your piont. I would never willfully try to send the wrong idea about what our group is, or is not. I may have over stated my point somewhat. Yet it is a piont I would like to have talked over. Hopefully we are more Rand like than it is looking to me now. It appers to me that many of our topics some how lead back to back to the god deal. We have talked about many things thus far. All kinds of things like WW Two, the KKK, The Commies,& even deep sea diving. That is a lot of diff topics, I agree. In many ways we may just be a group that gets together for the fun of it. Thats cool also, no prob with that.

I am just wondering if we should use the word Objectivist in our name. We all do have Rand in common, I'll agree with that. Yet we hardly ever talk about her or her ideas. The one idea that seems to come up the most is the god deal thats all. I am not saying we ought to sit there & read her word for word. That would be no fun at all. The group would be lucky to last 2 weeks doing that. You know what I mean man. I'm not like trying to fuss. I am just wondering why? Thats all.


Jamiebiggrin
Old T.
OldToad
Group Organizer
Dallas, TX
Post #: 29
Jamie,

I know you love our group, probably more than anybody else does, and that you would never intend to say anything negative about our group.

But for the record, I just don't think it is fair to say that "we hardly ever talk about [Ayn Rand] or her ideas" or that religion is "the big topic at hand."

You have been to three of our meetings, you have had to leave two hours before the end of two of those, and you spent most of the your time with just one of the subgroups (out on the patio). Different discussions were continuing to take place after you left, and different discussions were also taking place out in front of the house watching the children ride bikes, in the kitchen, around the dining table, and in the living room.

As wide ranging as our discussion topics have been, even some of the superficial ones that are just about getting to know each other personally, Ayn Rand, her books, and her ideas have been referred to and discussed numerous times and in numerous contexts.

Take care,

Todd.
A former member
Post #: 46
Todd,

"I know you love our group, probably more than anybody else does, and that you would never intend to say anything negative about our group."

I must fully disagree with you first point, love is a very strong word. ( JUST KIDDING ) Yet, I do like it a lot.biggrin I get what you mean.

Man, I think you must be like mad or something. How did it get so personal so fast. I'm sorry I have upset you so much. I just thought I'd bring up what I thought was a good point. The only real Rand-like topic I recall at all is the the first meeting when Mitch talked all about her ideas. Man he really hit some really cool stuff also. No I can not be everywhere & hear everything. I also never said I did. As you also know why I always leave early. I also missed the last meeting because one of my jobs of my jobs. I also thought the meeting ended at 10:00PM. That is what the post always states anyway. As I always leave at 9:00 PM.

I also thought you always wanted everyone's imput about how we think the meeting might be better. I think if we talked more about Rand, and her ideas it would be better. That was why I made the post in the first place. I am not trying to be negative at all. It just seems that the god topic is a very big one. I belive with a name like N.T.O.S. Rand should be the big topic. That is what my main point has always been, even at our first meeting. I said we should always remember why we got together in the first place.
I recall saying that to you, Mitch, and JD outside if you recall that. I'm not sure if you do or not. I just feel that we must keep on track, stay the course. If I have offended you or the rest of the group in any way I am sorry, that never has or will be my intention. So have a good day Todd, I'll see you on Sat.

Jamie


biggrin
Old T.
OldToad
Group Organizer
Dallas, TX
Post #: 30
Jamie,

I'm not the least bit mad at you, nor is this personal in any way. I apologize to you for making it seem that way. I find writing to be much more difficult than communicating in person, and sometimes I come off too strong.

I do welcome criticism that is intended to be constructive, and I sincerely believe that your criticism is always intended to be so.

Of course, if you make a public statement or criticism, I am also free to publicly disagree with you. In doing so, I will always try not to give any offense. We should all try to keep in mind that other's public written statements, and even criticisms, are probably not intended to give offense, even if they could be interpreted that way as written.

In this case, it's merely that I disagree with a few of your public statements on this discussion thread describing our meetings, which I believe are overgeneralizations from a few of your particular discussions at just a small portion of all the discussions we have had.

I welcome your suggestion that we discuss yet another topic. Apart from that, on another point you have raised on this thread, I do not understand in specific terms what you are suggesting we do to improve the name or the format for the meeting. Change the name of the group? Have Mitch give a presentation? Perhaps you could explain or elaborate?

Take care,
Todd.
A former member
Post #: 47
Todd,
My advice now is you or I need to reply to the next meeting date post. With the meeting almost at hand, it needs to be on top for all to see. We will talk over this at the meeting. I am glad you are not mad. As I am not either.


Jamiebiggrin
A former member
Post #: 1
Jaime,

While I agree with Todd, we have a wide range of dicusssion topics (e.g. last meeting I spent an hour discussing the virtues and difficulties of privatizing the entire road system in the US), religion does seem to come up a lot. I think the reason for this is that in an Objectivist group anybody who jumps up and says "government is the solution" or "we need more governtment" is likely to get (verbally) jumped on by everyone in the group. Distrust of big government is one of our core values so it has well-nigh universal agreement in our group. As much point in discussing that as discussing whether the weather in TX will be hot this August. On the other hand, letting go of God seems to be one of the hardest and last changes that people make as they move towards a more Objectivist worldview. Because that often comes last (and occasionally not at all) that's a topic where there can be some disagreement and where some people are looking for clarity.
Glad you're paying attention and I'd be happy to discuss any issue you're interested in temporal or spiritualsmile at our next meeting.
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