North Texas Objectivist Society (NTOS) Message Board › "A Day Without Latinos" What do you think?

"A Day Without Latinos" What do you think?

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Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 50
Here is an article regarding walkouts across the country due to proposed legislation to crack down on illegal workers:
http://www.dallasnews...­


Now, I think it is wonderful when someone comes to this country and makes a good life for themself and their family. Good for them! But I think it is important that it is done legally.

I am curious to get an Objectivist's take on this situation.
Santiago Valenzue...
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 62
You ever taken a look at what it takes to get into this country?

A far cry from the "sign your name here, welcome to America" of our past.

The problem I have with illegal immigration is not the illegality, but the laws that have driven so many to jump the border illegally. I cannot, in good conscience, damn the breaking of laws I find immoral. For example, though I think an individual would have to be a loser to be a drug addict, I wouldn't condemn him specifically because he broke drug laws.

This is why I do not think illegal immigration is 'bad,' per se. America has taken waves of immigrants before and integrated them (after, as always initial difficulties) without too much trouble. I do not see what all the hubub about this particular strain of immigrant is about. One might be tempted to cry 'racism!' but, in abscence of any reasonable proof that all the people (or any of them, in fact) are in fact racist, I'm guessing this is just a combination of xenophobia (conservatives' tradition-worship backfires on them so much; a pronounced fear of drastic change in the makeup of America is one of them) and political opportunism.

All of this illegalizing people who want to come here to work and live is silly. It takes a lot of resources away from officers and especially border patrol agents who should be going after people who are crossing the border for more nefarious purposes.

Santiago
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 53
Yes, that is a good point, it shouldn't be so hard to come here legally.
I do think it is foolish to charge people as a felon for being here, or those that offer assistance to the illegal immigrants. I was quite annoyed when I read that part of the bill. It looks like that part may be dropped. (Like we don't have enough people in prison.)

My view has always been that if you come here illegally, you shouldn't be eligible for welfare, etc. "Give me your tire and poor" was never (in my mind anyway) supposed to be followed with "and you can live off the government". But I guess that would be a moot point, since I think the answer I would get is all welfare is wrong anyway.

Okay, so what do you guys think would be a better solution? How do you make it easier for honest people to come here without making it easier for the undesireable element to come over? (such as criminals).
Santiago Valenzue...
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 64
Talk with the Mexican government about making a combined database so that you can make a quick background check of any individual crossing over the border. Therefore, known Mexican criminals can be turned away. And, of course, rigorously prosecute the American citizens who violate the law.

This lets everyone who wants to come over here legitimately come, and lets the border patrol know that anyone jumping the fence is not likely coming over to work hard and be a good citizen.

Regarding welfare, well, the entire system is one big theft - not by the collectors so much as the government. The government takes the money and decides what to do with it. I don't see much of a difference if say, I used public healthcare and an illegal immigrant does. I do not make a lot of money and I havn't put enough money into "the system" to even begin to cover the costs of any major hospital stay - so you guys get to pick it up.

Socialized healthcare is stealing, illegal immigrants just highlight that in a way that no one can deny.
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 55
There still would be room for error with background checks, but no system is perfect.
I can see something easily being set up with Canada and Mexico to do that. But what about other countries?

Maybe the Mexican governtment could take the money they spend on the fliers on how to cross the boarder safely into a database system.

I wonder if the issues that a system would create could be worse than the problems we have now with immigration issues? I am not knocking your idea...just thinking out loud here.
Santiago Valenzue...
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 67
I'd be willing to roll with any idea that works, but that seems the most expedient.

With other countries, well, there's our own terrorist database and such. And if not, well, we just have to live with it. If they're peaceful here I don't see too big a problem.
A former member
Post #: 86
Immigrants comming to live and work here is fine. It's a fundamental human right to live and work where you want. The primary issue for me is citizenship. I don't want people who don't have the proper cultural background voting. I think they will have a tendency to vote for the same sort of politicians that made their own countries such a mess in the first place. With this in mind, I think that a "guest worker" program, in which anyone who is not a known criminal and wants to come and work and live here indefinitely can do so, but they shouldn't be allowed to become citizens with voting rights.

Citizenship should be reserved for those that can demonstrate that they understand our culture. I'm not sure on the standards that should be used to demonstrate this, but that is an issue for the legislature to work out in my ideal, capitalist social and political system.tongue
Old Toad
OldToad
Group Organizer
Dallas, TX
Post #: 177
Immigrants comming to live and work here is fine. It's a fundamental human right to live and work where you want. ...

I question this statement.

Because I know Dean personally, instead of "human right," I believe Dean probably meant "individual right," so I won't dwell on asking him about that.

For the same reason, I believe that Dean probably did not mean to say that a person has a 'right" to infringe upon another's property rights so that he could "live where he might want" or a "right" to any "work that he may want" that someone else does not want to give him. So while the statement is literally overbroad, I won't dwell on that part, either.

But I do think that Dean meant to say that a person has an individual right to live in any country he would like to. I don't understand this idea. Why would a sovereign polital unit, as a "country," made up of and supported by its citizens, have any obligation to allow any foreigner to come in or immigrate, whether to live, work, or play? What individual right of a foreign person would be violated by refusing to allow him into the country?

Am I missing something?

-- Todd
Dan
dbclawyer
Allen, TX
Post #: 26
I am inclined to ask a different question: Are my rights violated when a foreign national enters the country? All things being equal (the person is not a known criminal, spy, diseased, etc) the answer is no, my rights are not violated by his entry. Does the law require me to feed him, clothe him or provide him w/medical care? If the answer is no then I have no basis to keep him out.

Let's return to Todd's good question: Do I have an obligation to let him in?

The notion of an obligation denotes that there is some act I am (legally or morally) required to do. (To be legitimate, the obligation must normally arise as a result of my agreeing to take on the obligation or my owing the obligation in return for some value I have received.)

Assuming, as our starting point, the validity of Objectivist ethics, we have no obligation to our hypothetical friend. Because we are not obligated to let him in, he should have to pay a fee so as to cover the cost of the appropriate screening process.

While I am not required to undertake any particular course of action on behalf of the newly arrived, I do owe him the same thing I owe all my fellow citizens: I must refrain from violating his rights: I must not initiate force against him.

What does he owe us? The same thing we owe him: he must refrain from violating our rights.
A former member
Post #: 87
I assumed the proper context was already held in the minds of the readers, and they would understand that I don't mean "a right to be provided with a job" when I speak of rights. Individual rights and human rights are synonomous. The right to private property is a fundamental human right. (This is an "Objectivist sight".)

If you want to get that technical about it, then anybody who owns a piece of property in America can decide who should be allowed on that property (absent a national security risk). Since all property should be private, with the possible exception of a few courthouses, legislature buildings, police facilities, military bases and chief executive offices, then the people living here now should be free to decide whether a foreigner will come onto their particular property or not. Furthermore, since the right to private property is absolute, any foreigner has an individual (human) right to buy property from any citizen and vice-versa.

A "guest worker program" would seem to allow private property owners to be free to let foreigners onto their property that are not a threat to national security, while ensuring that we don't muck up the political process with people who may not be properly acculturated. It would also seem to ensure the right of current property owners to sell their property to whom they please and foreigners to buy and use that property.
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