North Texas Objectivist Society (NTOS) Message Board › Immigration and other things

Immigration and other things

Lathanar
Lathanar
Dallas, TX
Post #: 33
There was quite a lively discussion last meeting about the illegal immigrant issue and after thinking about what all was said, there was a few things up that I can't figure out how to react to. For me the discussion in the end broke down to one point. Are the immigration quotas that restrict immigration to our country moral or not? If so how would a bandaid solution to stop the bankruptcy of the welfare system such as building a wall to stop them from coming into the country be a moral solution? Would this not be the same as saying, since the robin hood was shot down, now our public schools are going to shutdown because they can't afford to stay open, so lets vote to raise property tax instead of finding a real solution. I still do not see how we should vote to put something into place so we can shore up our welfare system so it doesn't falter.

Many times it was also brought up that some of these immigrants don't have our best interest at heart, or don't really wish to be American. But without saying that ALL of them are that way, aren't we infringing on the individual rights of those that do want be lawful and productive? I understand also that it is not everyone's right to have a job and I'm not advocating such. However, the companies asking for visa limits to be increased so they can get more skilled workers or workers willing to accept a lower wage for the same job, are these laws and limits not infringing on their rights to do business? Is this not government regulation of their work force?

Throughout the whole discussion I often heard too how these immigrants woud do this or do that that was illegal. I have been searching for any statistic that shows that illegal immigrants commit more crimes than legal immigrants or even regular citizens, and I find that data to be very lacking. I do understand that most of the rebuttal to this is they are commiting a crime just by being here, but I'm talking about crimes against other people and their property, not the immigration statutes which I don't see as being moral in the first place. All the anti-immigrant sites I have been looking through can't even support claims like that. Even if it were substatiated, is it moral to judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few? How is it right to say that they shouldn't come over because some of them are up to no good?

Perhaps I missed something fundamental, but I understood Objectivism as saying that we are all individuals and should not be judged by the actions of others, that we are responsible for ourselves. Is forcing the decisions of the majority on the minority immoral?

- Travis
Santiago V.
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 71
Criminally stupid generalizations, collectivist premises, collective punishment for an entire class of people, support for the welfare state?

Nice one.
A former member
Post #: 91

Perhaps I missed something fundamental, but I understood Objectivism as saying that we are all individuals and should not be judged by the actions of others, that we are responsible for ourselves. Is forcing the decisions of the majority on the minority immoral?

- Travis

You are essentially on the right track, as far as the "Objectivist position" on immigration is concerned (to the extent that there can be an Objectivist position). People from other countries have just as much right to come to America as people from Oklahoma have a right to move to Texas. There are some national security issues that have to be worked out to prevent terrorists from comming in and causing problems, but that doesn't justify closing the borders to immigration.

Everybody should read this article:
http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=4620­

Which is by Harry Binswanger, an associate and student of Ayn Rand's.


What I have said doesn't mean that *citizenship* should be automatically granted, but *residency* should be for all non-criminals.
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 72
Dean, thanks for posting the link to that article.

I didn't really participate in the discussion Travis mentioned, but I did listen to quite a bit of it.
There was talk of Mexicans coming to the US and being part of some sort of movement to try to take back California. I think that might of played into why at least one person on the other side of this debate was so adamant against immigration from Mexico. (Please correct me if I am wrong: I don't want to speak for others, but I think this was a very important part of the debate.) If anyone could post on that side of the story, I think it would be beneficial to understanding why this was such a hotly debated topic.

I don't understand how any Objectivist could complain that immigrants steal jobs from Americans, since no one really has a right to any job, but you have to earn it, or be worthy of it. I mean thats how I understand the employment situation. Regarding lower wages, isn't the Objectivist stance AGAINST minimum wage laws?

Those that are here legally would be able to seek positions that pay better because they wouldn't have to be paid under the table, or have to accept a lower wage because they have fake papers and fear getting caught.

Incidently, I don't know ANY immigrants that are on welfare. I grew up in an area where 2 or 3 extended families would live together rather than go on welfare until they could all go out on their own. Down here in TX, I have met quite a few of my son's friends that are immigrants, and none of them are on welfare. I realize there is a problem, but it is a problem with ALL on welfare, not just immigrants.

I guess one could argue that building a wall could be appropriate on the government's part because it may protect the property rights of those that live on the border. But I still am not 100% sure about that one either.
Santiago V.
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 72
The movement you're talking about is Atzland or some such nonsense. Its not exactly popular and characterizing it as "the plan" of all the illegal immigrants is laughably crude stereotyping.

These people are coming here to work, not take over. They're diverse enough that painting them with a broad brush like that is always going to hit really big snags.
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 76
Thanks...I had never heard of this before. The only references I can see googling Atzland looks to be on white supremecist boards...eek...

edited to add: I thought it sounded a bit far fetched, but I thought it worthwhile to mention, in case I was missing something.
Lathanar
Lathanar
Dallas, TX
Post #: 34
The Aztlan movement is supposed to be about the indigenous people of Aztec and other tribes that lived in the Southwest US and northern Mexico regions taking back their land stolen from them by the Europeans. It's not about the Spanish Mexicans taking back the southwest, if anything they are the enemy too. It'd be along the same lines as say the Comanche try to take back their land taken by the US.

- Travis

(edit) Here is a link for what the current run of this movement is that some of the groups protesting are using.
MEChA
Dan
dbclawyer
Allen, TX
Post #: 27
I know of a group that call itself La Raza. I believe this translates to "the race".
Santiago V.
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 73
"la rasa" is a term that used to be (somewhat) popular back in the civil rights era, especially in California. It does indeed mean "the race." It was somewhat the equivalent of the Black Panther groups - militant, seperatist mexicans. They were a fair bit more powerful politically speaking than the black panthers, even ran their own candidate for governer of I believe this fine state of Texas. They lost popularity back then, though, and now MEChA and all the other Hispanosupremicist groups are very much "fringe."

Now, back to your unsuspecting lives, lazy white people.

(Kidding)
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 78
well, I do have an unusual amount of time on my hands today....tongue
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