North Texas Objectivist Society (NTOS) Message Board › Who do we invite to NTOS Speaker events?

Who do we invite to NTOS Speaker events?

Old Toad
OldToad
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Dallas, TX
Post #: 358
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On the thread announcing Dr. Bernstein's visiting to speak to NTOS, Tom Miovas wrote:

I heard this lecture (or one similar to it) about two years ago at The University of Texas, Austin; so I will give my advanced recommendation.

Andy Bernstein is a very upbeat and inspiring lecturer.There weren't any hecklers in that audience and there weren't any hecklers in the audience when Andy was involved in a debate "Is Selfishness a Virtue?" that took place at a local Dallas college at about the same time period (2004). I'm mentioning this since the moderator and organizer of NTOS seems overly concerned about letting non-NTOS members attend. I think if we found a college lecture room to give the lecture and invited students, then we might be able to increase the enrollment of NTOS.


Tom,

Regarding our differing assessments about letting "non-NTOS members" attend, I have a few explanatory comments, which I thought deserved a separate discussion thread.


WHO WE INVITE AND WHY

As currently stated on our "About" page: "We invite and welcome anyone who admires Ayn Rand's works and is constructively interested in Objectivism to join us as a member. Both Objectivists and non-Objectivists are welcome as members; however, we expect that each member make an effort outside our social events to learn more about Objectivism."

Why do we invite and welcome people who express at least this level of interest? Again, I refer to our "About" page. In general, the stated reasons are personal to those of us who are already constructively interested in Objectivism. Aiming for at least this level of interest in Objectivism is based on our personal assessments as to who we are trying to attract so that we can spend our valuable social time with them. It is also based on our assessments as to what general level of interest in Objectivism would be necessary to entice other Objectivists to join us and spend their valuable time with us.

In contrast, our purpose is not to try to sell Objectivism to any person or college student who may happen to walk past a sign on a door to a lecture on capitalism. For our immediate purposes in building NTOS, we assess that such a person's level of interest in most cases is likely to be too low.


SCREENING PARTICIPANTS

I indeed have always been very watchful over the personal enjoyment and safety of all of us at our NTOS events. Especially as Julia and I host most events in our own home, we take the greatest risk in inviting strangers to our events. I think everyone should be thankful that I do screen participation.

Since my first days as Organizer, I have screened participation of several members (now former members). I have always asked for an e-mail address, looked for some indicia of friendliness and rationality, and expected compliance with our community standards.

Sometimes I may have mistaken attempts at humor for cause for concern. Perhaps I was overly cautious, and a few of those who were screened away would have been fine people to have in our group. But we take enough risk meeting each other over the Internet. If I have the slightest doubt, I see no reason to subject any of us to any greater risk than must be taken if we are to meet at all.

I am moving in the direction of asking more information than I have in the past of anyone who wants to come to any one of our events. I do not see the value in risking any of our associations with a person drawn from the general public who will not meet such a reasonable request.

Further, I do not want to waste any of our time dealing with hecklers. For your information, I was informed by Dr. Bernstein's publicist that such instances have recently occurred at his public lectures. I do not have any particulars, but for the foreseeable future, I have no intention of "letting" that happen here.

Of course, I expect that I and/or Dr. Bernstein could handle a few hecklers. But regardless of whether we could do that, I don't want to waste my time or the rest of our audience's time on that, which is completely unnecessary for our purposes as I stated them above. When a speaker goes to a college campus, the purposes are different, and they choose to risk and take on those problems.


WHY SIGNING UP FOR NTOS IS IMPORTANT

In general, want people to sign up for NTOS so that I can easily promote future events to them and otherwise communicate with them. Meetup's communication tools for managing a group are not perfect, but they are a great help to me. I would not have sufficient time to organize NTOS without such tools.

The least anyone who wants to participate in any NTOS event can do is sign up so I can communicate with him easily. A person can also withdraw at any time if they find my communications annoying, which also is easy for me. For example, I do not have to keep track of who wants to be on our e-mail list and who does not any longer.

I also want to meet people and talk with others like anyone else at our events. I do not want to have to sit and manage payments at the door. There is no reason to have anyone else waste his time doing so, either. It is not too much to ask someone to sign up in advance, please.

For managing the management of NTOS, I need it to be entirely Internet based.


RESPECT FOR NTOS

Who are all these would be "walk-ins" you are concerned about that will somehow hear about our NTOS speaker events but not be able to register in advance?

Unfortunately, two of the "non-NTOS members" you may be referring to have in the past been disrespectful of our purposes for NTOS and unwilling to abide by our "Community Standards." I understand that these two may also happen to be your personal friends.

However, abiding by our standards for participation is not optional.

In plain terms, we do not welcome someone "eating at our table while poisoning our well." Our "table" is the friends we can meet through NTOS and now our occasional speaker events. Our "well" is the valuable time of our other members and the Organizers' money and efforts to build NTOS, including our efforts to promote it on the Internet and now starting to underwrite the substantial costs of bringing in speakers.

If any expelled member of NTOS wants to attend, he should address me directly to see if we can resolve our past differences.



CONCLUSION

Our events are open to anyone who wants to sign up for NTOS as a member based on the level of interest we seek, gives me some basic contact information and indicia of friendliness, and is willing to abide by our community standards. Our events are also open to any member's guests who we normally presume would at least honor our standards for participation.

The purposes of our events are for our members' enjoyment and for promoting NTOS to the specific category of people we want to join us. The purpose of my screening efforts and our community standards is to protect our mutual interest in our reasons for getting together.

-- Todd

Edited for clarity in a few sentences and the "Unfortunately..." paragraph, which was unfortunately ambiguous. Later edited a bit more on 11/27/06 to shorten couple of paragraphs a bit based on Dan's comments.
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 315
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Managing the RSVPs and payments, aside, I think it is smart to invite NTOS members to such events, from the standpoint of using such speaker events as a way to recruit more members to NTOS.

I, for one, enjoyed the Craig Biddle event not only for the excellent presentation that he gave, but also for the fact that there I knew most of the people that attended. That allowed it to be a pleasant atmosphere, with plenty of people I already knew to chat with. Sure, I met a few new people, and that was great. But if NTOS is going to go to the expense (monetarily and time wise) I think this is an excellent way to handle the procedure.

As Tom noted, these speakers are often engaged to speak at more public events. That is great, and if I have the time I will attend more of those in the future too. But I really like the fact that an event that is associated with NTOS is careful in how members are invited, and how RSVPs are managed.
A former member
Post #: 112
I think Todd and I are talking past one another to some degree. I was basically looking at the major speaking events as a means of recruiting an interest in NTOS, something other than just socializing with good people. However, I think that is what Todd is trying to do with the pre-sign-up via NTOS to attend the lectures.

In essence, I think we have the same goal in mind, but have different approaches to filling the rank and file of NTOS membership. I don't mind someone being mistaken in their views, so long as they are studying Objectivism, because I think Objectivism will win out in their consciousness, if they are serious about reason and its applications. I also recognize that this may take a long time to occur, which is why I can be friends with someone who is not an Objectivist but is in a state of transition. I also understand why you would not want people involved in NTOS who are not supportive of your efforts. I have discussed this with the two people in question, and they are not going to change their minds any time soon. They will definitely miss out on the major speaking events and the socializing at the Ranch.

All I was trying to get at is the idea that some of the speaker events will be by people who are fairly well-known, and making a name for themselves, such as Dr. Bernstein, and that some people might want to hear his lecture without the necessity of having to join NTOS. His debate in Dallas several years ago was sponsored by The Dallas Philosopher's Forum, and I would not have attended the debate if I had to sign up with this group first. Likewise, if I had to sign up for and become an active member of The University of Texas at Austin (student) Objectivist Club before attending the Global Capitalism lecture, I might not have gone.

I would not have signed up with The Dallas Philosopher's Forum, because the philosophies presented there are horrendous. Andy and I had a discussion with some of those guys at a dinner after the debate, and some of those guys absolutely hate reason.

I would not have signed up for the Austin Student Objectivist Club because I don't live in Austin and would not have been able to participate. At the time, they had my moral support, but I didn't want to become a member.

Likewise, there was once The Texas Objectivist Conferences held in either Austin or Houston, but I was not asked to sign up for either Objectivist group before attending the conferences.

The simple point is that many people may be suspicious of having to sign up with a group before attending a lecture, so they will decline.

Now, if you want to get email addresses and home addresses and telephone numbers from people; well, again, they may not want to get spammed (not that NTOS does that) and they may not want to give out such personal information as their mailing address and phone numbers to people they don't even know; especially if all they know about them is what is available on a website. There are too many scams going on out there for people to be that trusting of an organization they may never had heard of.

However, since you host NTOS at your home and will probably host the major lectures at you private place of business, then I agree that you have to be security minded. And I am personally happy that you pre-screen attendance at the Ranch for both your safety and mine and the other attendees.

That's one reason I suggested having the major lecturers at a "neutral" place, such as a hotel conference room or a campus conference room, so people who wanted to hear the lecture but did not want to give out personal information could attend.

I don't have to give out personal information when I go shopping or when I go to a movie, and I can understand people being reluctant to do so before attending a lecture.

I guess I see a difference between NTOS sponsoring an event, and that event being available to NTOS members only. In a way, I don't mind the exclusivity as a special bonus of being an NTOS member, but on the other hand I have met a lot of good people at special events that didn't require joining the club before they could attend.

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Old Toad
OldToad
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Dallas, TX
Post #: 360
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Tom,

Thank you for your thoughtful response. I think you have explained your thinking behind your original suggestion so that I can understand it much better. Especially taking into account your response, I think we are going through a process of identifying the issues so that we can properly discuss them, not so much that we are talking past each other, and I appreciate the importance of this step for having a productive discussion.

I would like to substantively address a few things in your response that would continue the process of better identifying the issues, but right now I must turn to my work for making a living. I'll try to spend some time on this over the next few days or so.

-- Todd
Old Toad
OldToad
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Tom explained:

I think Todd and I are talking past one another to some degree. I was basically looking at the major speaking events as a means of recruiting an interest in NTOS, something other than just socializing with good people. ...

In essence, I think we have the same goal in mind, but have different approaches to filling the rank and file of NTOS membership. I don't mind someone being mistaken in their views, so long as they are studying Objectivism, because I think Objectivism will win out in their consciousness, if they are serious about reason and its applications. I also recognize that this may take a long time to occur, which is why I can be friends with someone who is not an Objectivist but is in a state of transition. ...



Hi Tom,

In essence, I think we do have a root difference in regarding our ideas for the goal of NTOS, which I think is better described as a difference regarding the purpose of NTOS.

From what you wrote, my understanding is that you have a vision that the purpose of NTOS is (or should be) to advocate Objectivism to people who may not even know of Ayn Rand's works or anything about Objectivism.

For my vision, the purpose of NTOS is (or should be) to have a society of and for people who already have a minimal level of interest in Objectivism and who actively want to socialize together on the basis of that common interest.

Such different visions for the purpose of NTOS naturally lead each of us to think very differently about the activities we should offer and who we should invite. The difference informs everything that we should do and it becomes most palpable when we each consider who NTOS should invite to its speaker events, where there could be the most overlap in the two different purposes.

For example, to meet your vision for the purpose of NTOS, we should put most of our effort into hosting educational presentations and speaker events rather than informal social gatherings. For this purpose, the group should have started with organized presentations about Objectivism and should emphasize formal discussion groups (like "OPAR"). The group should invite a broader range of people, and each person who knows more about Objectivism should spend time and be patient trying to advocate Objectivism to that broader range of guests who might be willing to listen. We should hold events at public places, open to the public. Who would be considered disruptive for that purpose would probably only be an outright heckler. The speaker events should be primary, and social events just a bonus.

In contrast, for example, to meet my vision for our purpose for NTOS, we should put more effort into our social gatherings rather than our speaker events. (Thus, we have already hosted around 40 social events, but we are only getting on with bringing in our second speaker after nearly two years.) We should focus on people who have a sufficient level of interest in Objectivism so that we can relax and enjoy ourselves socially most of the time. We should hold events in comfortable, private venues (such as an Organizer's home) where we can lounge around. The social events are open only to members, and possibly, depending on other strategic considerations to achieve this purpose, their welcome friends and families. Who would be considered disruptive for this purpose would not just be a heckler, but also a person who might be stuck for a very long while on an axiom or two, especially if they are constantly and actively debating or selling the point from another philosophical view. The social events should be primary, and speaker events just a bonus for us and intended to draw attention to us, especially from those we would likely want to socialize with.

I do think it is important to advocate Objectivism to non-Objectivists. But I think that other groups are already working at this purpose by offerings such as ARI's essay contests, the campus club project, Objectivist speakers participating in open debates at "The Dallas Philosopher's Forum," etc.

I can (and do) financially support such other efforts at that purpose, but that is not our purpose for NTOS.

The purpose Julia and I originally had for NTOS is decidedly different and centered on our immediate concerns for providing an Objectivist social context for our family and children.


To the extent you and I had been talking past each other, I think it is because we did not first identify our respective views of the purpose of NTOS, perhaps assuming they were the same and then not being able to understand why we came to different conclusions about what activities we should offer and who we should invite.

What do you think?

-- Todd

P.S. I also appreciate your clarification regarding those two non-NTOS members. With regard to one in particular, I regret that I was not more prepared at the time in explaining our purpose and context for NTOS, which I think contributed to the break with him. Unfortunately, that situation does appear to be an irreconcilable breach (from his perspective), at least for the foreseeable future.


NOTE:
Edited to remove from the "For my vision" paragraph a misplaced phrase "or at least include." As Tom noted in his next reply, everyone knows that my primary for NTOS is a social purpose, not that it should "at least include" a social purpose.
-- Todd
A former member
Post #: 113
You've made it very clear from the beginning that you think the primary purpose of NTOS is for Objectivists to get together to socialize, rather than providing an educational opportunity. I think some people may have problems with this because they might want it to be more explicitly focused on Objectivism -- i.e. to provide a place where those interested can get together to listen to the educational material that is out there in an effort to better understand Objectivism. This is what most Objectivists clubs do.

I'm not at all against the socializing part. I enjoy getting together with individuals who at least admire Ayn Rand and have some knowledge of Objectivism, and want to learn more. However, I have a pretty high standard of who I call an Objectivist; and admiration of Ayn Rand and minimal knowledge of Objectivism is not enough.

Objectivists are made, not born; and they are self-made. They have to take ideas seriously and they have to be interested in integrating Objectivism into their lives. I think socializing with those who at least have some knowledge is one way of staying integrated -- i. e. at least one way one can keep the Objectivist attitude of being rational about everything explicitly and openly, since most people don't care to do this even though Ayn Rand's works are best sellers. In other words, one of the benefits of meeting with other individuals who know something about Objectivism is that one doesn't have to do a lot of explaining every time one says something. A certain context can be taken for granted -- i. e. that they are open to reason; which can't be said about a whole lot of people we are normally surrounded by. This is the benefit of the educational material being widely available. People can study it on their own at their own pace.

However, the recent hoopla surrounding Dr. Peikoff's election announcement is a good indication of where we stand. There simply aren't thousands of people out there who are willing to carefully think through a controversial position in terms of Objectivist principles. I'm not here saying that one had to agree with Dr. Peikoff's statement. Rational disagreements are possible. But there were people out there calling themselves Objectivists who basically said he had lost his marbles; and it was amazing to me how many different ways this was said.

The bottom line is that education is very important. And I'm glad there is an OPAR study group at the Ranch. I think that will help to focus things more assuredly. It will help to make Objectivists out of those admirers. And I think that is one of the most important things you are doing; because one has to understand the ideas before one can integrate them and know who to socialize with.

In other words, if you want to fill the rank and file of NTOS, then you will have to educate to some degree in the long run; for that is the only way our numbers will grow. It's a slow process, but there isn't any other way to do it.

So, yes, I'm looking at the speaker engagements, the OPAR study group, and other events like that as a means of making Objectivists. There just aren't enough of us out there.

I appreciate you offering us a place to get together, but there are not going to be thousands of Objectivists in the local area for a very long time to come. We need to make more. That's one reason I have my website out there and one reason I can be patient with newbies to Objectivism. However, because we need to be sincere about promoting Objectivism, I agree that we need to be careful of what we promote and what we permit others to promote using the resources of NTOS.

I guess one way of summarizing the issues is this: If you want to get together with Objectivists, then you are going to have to put forth some effort to make Objectivists. I've been at this for thirty years now, and I can tell you that they don't grow on trees.

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Philosophic essays based on the philosophy of Ayn Rand

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Old Toad
OldToad
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Dallas, TX
Post #: 362
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Hi Tom,

You've made it very clear from the beginning that you think the primary purpose of NTOS is for Objectivists to get together to socialize, rather than providing an educational opportunity. (Emphasis added.)

Perhaps you were just generally hand waving over my purpose for NTOS and not trying to be particularly specific, but I think it is important for me to make sure this is clarified. The primary purpose of NTOS is socialization -- but not only for Objectivists -- it is explicitly for members who admire Ayn Rand's works and are constructively interested in Objectivism, which merely includes some Objectivists (plus each member can bring welcome friends, spouse, and children to our social events).


I think some people may have problems with this because they might want it to be more explicitly focused on Objectivism -- i.e. to provide a place where those interested can get together to listen to the educational material that is out there in an effort to better understand Objectivism. This is what most Objectivists clubs do.

That is fine, if that is what most Objectivist clubs want to do. Nobody is stopping them.

But for some reason, almost all of them do stop. In searching the Internet, my observation is this: with a tiny number of exceptions around the country, it appears that the status of virtually all Objectivist clubs that have taken that "educational" approach is somewhere between dying and long dead.

I wish (and hope) that I am wrong. Would someone care to show where lots of thriving Objectivist clubs can be found? Are there lots of Objectivist societies that instead of using the Internet prefer to communicate by secret handshake?

A typical educational group appears to have less than five people regularly attending. It rarely can get up enough people to organize even one speaker event for a small classroom before it dies. Hence, I see estimates that there are only five or six Objectivists out of five or six million people around here ("one in a million" is the number I have usually seen bandied about on Internet message boards).

Is "one in a million" truly the number of Objectivists, or is it truly just the number of Objectivists who also happen like the traditional study group format?

Either way, I hesitate to invest my time in such a club format, which appears to be almost universally unsuccessful by any measure better than "one in a million." :-(

Here is another thing to consider. My understanding is that Ayn Rand's books have sold around 20 million copies within about the first 50 years.

Unless each Objectivist has purchased upwards of one million copies of Ayn Rand's books (there supposedly being just a few of us in each big city), we should think about a gap of interest between her book sales and the study group format.

I totally agree with your observation that:

This is the benefit of the educational material being widely available. People can study it on their own at their own pace.

Perhaps Objectivist educational groups just bore most people to death?


I've been at this for thirty years now, and I can tell you that they [Objectivists] don't grow on trees.

You have long looked for Objectivists in the trees, and I accept your report that Objectivists don't grow on trees. So let's try looking to see if Objectivists might grow somewhere else.

Certainly we are not all Objectivists in NTOS, but I think we have more than five, and we are growing more.

The irony is this (and I hope you can appreciate this in the friendly spirit it is intended): To defend the traditional educational format, Objectivists tend to put down the popularity of Ayn Rand's works and demotivate ourselves. Are we really saying: "yeah, 20 millions have been sold, but only 'one in a million' really 'get it'"? Given the lasting popularity and magnificence of her works, I do not buy that explanation for why one tiny study group of a few people in a big city like Dallas is the best we can do.

I think we should question the viability of the traditional educational format rather than the viability of Ayn Rand's works. Let's not throw the philosophy out with the bathwater.

I would rather experiment and fail trying something new and different than keep trying the traditional "tried-and-failed" formula over and over again.

And I don't think throwing stones at NTOS (not that you are) would have anything to add to the problem of why the traditional educational groups don't seem to be working. I could be wrong about the proper purpose for NTOS and it might fail, but that won't help the study group format be any better than "one in a million." If NTOS were to fail for any reason, I would still urge people to try something different than the study group format, and I myself would try something, almost anything new, rather than give up and accept "one in a million" for my life and my family.

-- Todd

NOTE: As usual for me, I came back the next morning after writing a post late in the night and cleaned up some punctuation, spelling, and grammar.
-- Todd
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 318
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If any of us want to do some Objectivist evangelizing, we are free to do so. I haven't been studying Objectivism for thirty years, just merely about 1. But hey, I often will encourage others to read Rand's work when I see an opportunity to "plant a seed".

I applaud Tom's efforts at spreading Objectivism as much as he can, and think it is a great thing. However, I don't think it would be in NTOS' self interest to sacrifice the quality of the socialization of Objectivists, and those interested in Objectivism, by turning it into first and foremost an educational group. The study group is a great part, and I think an important addition. BUT, really, I have to tell you, many of the Objectivists that I have met don't attend because they don't have time, or don't really care to take part. Which is fine, to each their own.

I think it is up to those who want to do more work in figuring out how they can do it personally.

NTOS, in my opinion, is a place where those Objectivists and those interested in Objectivism can come and see the philosophy at work, because so many there are living it. The philosophy that is for living on earth, actually being lived. THAT is something that continues to impress me. That is something that I personally think is much more valuable on a regular basis than pushing an educational group. I get a lot of questions answered at NTOS, in a setting that is not intimidating, which for many people could be if it was all focused on educating the ignorant.

My family would have not made it past our first meeting if it was just an educational format. My guess is that NTOS would be filled with a whole lot of people with nothing else better to do on a few Saturday nights, instead of those that will forgo other invitations because they really want to be with a group of rational, like minded people that get what Rand was trying to say.

OPAR discussion group and the speaker events are wonderful, but to me, they are just icing on the cake. And as far as how the spearker events are handled, it boils down to this: the people that bear the responsibility of planning these events get to call the shots.

Just my two cents.
A former member
Post #: 114
I think it has to be kept in mind that Objectivism is a new philosophy.

You might think 50 years is a long time and that 20 million copies sold is a large number; but the simple truth of the matter is that it is earlier than you think.

The popularity of Miss Rand's novels is that they are great stories, and we still live in the remnants of an Enlightenment culture where there are still people out there looking for a great, intelligently written story to read; and one's that have rational heroes. They have inspired a lot of people to pursue their dream career with ardent pleasure and to have the self-confidence to do that. But we also live in the post-Kantian era -- he, in fact, destroyed the Enlightenment -- whereby people no longer take philosophic ideas seriously.

So, while millions of people read her novels with great pleasure, only a few -- a very small few -- will take those ideas presented, even while being embodied by realistic characters, and make those ideas a part of their life across the board. In other words, most people are going to read about Howard Roark or John Galt and think they are interesting characters in a novel, and leave it at that. There is only a handful, that one in a million reader, who will understand that there was a philosophy behind the characterization, and that each individual can fashion themselves into that type of character because the philosophy is there explicitly and written out.

If you take a look at history and how philosophic movements came about, we can be very thankful that 20 million copies of Miss Rand's novels have sold, because without the printing press and the modern methodology of the mass marketing, it would have taken many centuries for those 20-2000 people who are interested in philosophic ideas to have even had a chance to have discovered Objectivism. And they wouldn't have known each other! They might not even have known about each other! Every 50-100 years or so, someone would have rediscovered the great, rational philosophy; and he would have been totally isolated. He would probably even have been considered a heretic, and would have been burned at the stake; which is what happened to the rational man for a thousand years! And for another thousand years, he had to be damned careful not to step on the toes of those in power, with the entrenched philosophy, least he be shown the implements of torture and be told to shut up or else. It was 400 years between Aquinas and The Enlightenment!

In total, it took two thousand years for there to become a culture based on Aristotle -- two thousand years!

Now, I don't think it is going to take anywhere near that long for there to become a culture based on Objectivism; provided we can manage to remain free, which is questionable.

Given what we are up against -- Christianity, Kantianism, and down right apathy and hatred of reason -- I think we are doing quite well.

You scoff at people only getting together via the Internet, but Objectivists are spread rather thin right now, aside from a few major cities where there might be twenty people each who take Miss Rand seriously.

That's just the nature of things.

So, I think you ought to shift your focus from quantity to quality. Not that the people who attend NTOS don't have quality, because many of them do, but the world is full of people who will only say that Ayn Rand wrote good fiction -- and who will say that being that way is also only a matter of fiction. You know, it's all made up; real life isn't that way.

Do you really want those people coming to NTOS meetings? If so, they are available, but you would have to be a lot more open about who you let in your house and who will attend the lectures.

You run NTOS, so it is your call.

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Philosophic essays based on the philosophy of Ayn Rand

www.appliedphilosophyonline.com­

Applied Philosophy Online .com

Where Ideas Are Brought Down to Earth!

mailto:tmiovas@appliedphilosophyonline­.com

All rights reserved 2006 by Thomas M. Miovas, Jr.

Old Toad
OldToad
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Dallas, TX
Post #: 363
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Hi Tom,

At the beginning of this discussion, you suggested:
I'm mentioning this since the moderator and organizer of NTOS seems overly concerned about letting non-NTOS members attend. I think if we found a college lecture room to give the lecture and invited students, then we might be able to increase the enrollment of NTOS.

At the end of your last post, you suggest:
So, I think you ought to shift your focus from quantity to quality. Not that the people who attend NTOS don't have quality, because many of them do, but the world is full of people who will only say that Ayn Rand wrote good fiction -- and who will say that being that way is also only a matter of fiction. You know, it's all made up; real life isn't that way.

Do you really want those people coming to NTOS meetings? If so, they are available, but you would have to be a lot more open about who you let in your house and who will attend the lectures.


?

?

-- Todd
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  • Cash or check - “Please give any cash or check to any Organizer at an event. We also accept BitCoin: 14sioRkdEBcvvQavE4zbDbSwbsvscPAvF9 Thanks!

Your organizer will refund you if:

  • Each event may have a specific refund policy based on the nature of the event. General donations are not refundable. We may rely on any payment, so if you have any questions please ask an Organizer BEFORE making a payment!

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