North Texas Objectivist Society (NTOS) Message Board › Objectivist Enclave

Objectivist Enclave

A former member
Post #: 130
At the last NTOS meeting, I came in at the end of a discussion on having an Objectivist enclave -- i.e. a community one could live in that would be exclusive to Objectivists. I don't know what all was being discussed, but it is a topic that has come up now and then over the years. There was even some talk about starting a whole new country based on Objectivism, like buying an island and making it a separate country.

I certainly understand the desire to be around rational people all of the time as one's neighbors, but I'd be against the idea of founding a new country based on Objectivism, primarily because I think the USA still has a lot to offer that one wouldn't get in a self-sufficient island country. I suppose there would be free trade with anyone outside one wanted to do business with, which could provide the resources one would need to live well, but what about self-defense? Would everyone living there have the need to join the army or navy of the island to defend it, when necessary? I mean, think of it, your small island country is about to be attacked because you have turned it into a capitalist paradise with lots of goodies that a lot of people in the world would want. And could an army of, say, a few thousand people be enough to defend it, compared to, say, the military of the United States? And what about a police force and a courts system to protect your private property from others on the island? Maybe having nothing but Objectivists would discount the need for this to some degree, but there are always going to be disputes that have to be settled somehow, if nothing else, there would be disputes between those coming onto the island (i.e. suppliers and construction workers and tourists) which would have to be moderated by some official governmental agency.

However, even aside from these practical political issues, there is the issue of how do you permit only Objectivists from living there anyhow? To become a citizen, do they have to take a test on Objectivism and get a passing grade? And by what standard is this test going to be given -- for the expert? for the novice? for someone in between? Are you going to have a loyalty oath? and who is going to enforce it? And if one understands individual rights, by what right do you have to tell non-Objectivists that they cannot live there? Does the whole thing belong to one person who will sublet out sections of land, thus making his private property rights supreme? and what if you have a falling out with that person, breaking no laws but raising his ire nonetheless, can you be kicked out of paradise? Can he forcibly remove you from his property? And what if it is not all owned by one person (or a group of people), then how could you prevent others from moving onto it? Does anyone who does not have the right papers risk being kicked out? and who enforces this anyhow?

Illegal aliens in this country have become big news in the USA, and there are people wanting to kick them out of their homes because they don't have the right papers. Do you think that is right? and if not, then how could you propose doing the same thing for your Objectivist country? Do individual rights not mean anything, provided one has enough people on their side or a strong enough government to enforce the code?

These are only some of the issues that would come up with either an Objectivist country or an Objectivist community.

We don't even have to swear an oath to become a member of NTOS! Some Objectivists groups require this, but not NTOS, and yet you are wanting to establish a community (or a country) in which swearing such and oath and taking a test on Objectivism would be required.

I mention the issue of illegal aliens for another reason as well. I pointed out near the end of that conversation, that the reason illegal aliens are such a problem for those of us in the USA is that we have welfare and that the problem of those being on welfare is that they get moneys by indirect theft from citizens. I'm certainly against this, but the solution is to get rid of welfare, not curb immigration.

However, when I suggested that we speak out against welfare, it was pretty much taken as a given that we will always have welfare and there isn't anything we can do about it. Well, with that kind of attitude, you are right.

As far as I can tell, the Hillary Health Care Plan was primarily defeated due to the efforts of one man: Rush Limbaugh, who through his television show, his website, and his radio show alerted people to the bureaucratic monstrosity that it was. And the American people rose up against it.

So, yes, I am making yet another suggestion for those of you reading this post to rationally speak out on those issues that concern you. One voice can make a difference.

And if you are wondering what kind of flack you will get for speaking out, my website gets about 400 hits per week, and my essays are being read. You know how many complaints I have gotten: zip, zilch, na da. Oh, I occasionally get the cowardly anonymous email indicating that something I wrote might have attracted someone's attention, but they don't even make themselves clear, so who gives a darn what those harassers have to say? Give me something I can bite into, or keep it to yourself.

In other words, I still think this country is worth fighting for, which is one reason I am speaking out here and elsewhere. The more silent you become, the less effectual you will be. Do you really want to leave the world and this country in the hands of the irrational?

I don't see how that will do you any good at all.

[Edited to correct spelling errorand typo]

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Philosophic essays based on the philosophy of Ayn Rand

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Applied Philosophy Online .com

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Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 338
I wasn't in the conversation you are talking about, but I do agree with your statement that the country is still worth fighting for.
I do understand the desire to have just an Objectivist enclave, as you put it, though. Sometimes it can be over bearing in the world as it is.
But while it is absolutely fun to fantasize about it, it really isn't necessary, or perhaps possible (at least not right now).

Maybe an Objectivist cul de sac...that would be nice.

When you talk about speaking out against welfare, even if it may always be that way, I think you have an excellent point that is important to speak out. Sometimes I think maybe the problem comes in that one isn't sure how to speak out against it without harming one's interests. Maybe that is the biggest problems Objectivist face on this issue of standing up and speaking out?
Santiago Valenzue...
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 161
Well thought out, but only one point:

I mention the issue of illegal aliens for another reason as well. I pointed out near the end of that conversation, that the reason illegal aliens are such a problem for those of us in the USA is that we have welfare and that the problem of those being on welfare is that they get moneys by indirect theft from citizens. I'm certainly against this, but the solution is to get rid of welfare, not curb immigration.

What do you call welfare to and from regular citizens? Non-theft?

All illegals who do not pay taxes (and many of them do anyway) do is illustrate the fact that welfar is theft in a manner that nobody can ignore. Unfortunately recent debate has focused more on the illegals specifically rather than the socialist programs that give rise to such problems.

So I only take minor issue with this, but there still is one: all welfare is direct theft from citizens, money taken from people who earned it and given to people who have not. Does it make a difference in principle whether the person who takes it is a welfare bum born in the USA or an illegal alien coming into the emergency room?

Edit: Regarding having an "Objectivist enclave" locally, as in here in Dallas, what do you think the NTOS serves as a focal point for? I maybe a bit far away to loan you a cup of sugar, but I (at least) would not mind helping out most everyone here at the NTOS. In today's world of fast cars and easy transportation and gas prices that at least aren't too outrageous, the only thing preventing us from being neighbors, in effect, is that we don't yet think of ourselves as a community of neighbors that happens to live farther away from each other than normal.

Call people up, email them! We all seem to enjoy talking to friends we've made at the parties so much, why not hang out more outside of them? I'm always up for a chat over some tea, or dinner (mmm, free food.) I can't speak for anyone else but I don't imagine I'm particularly unique in this regard, either.

Basically, we're neighbors if and when we start treating each other like neighbors.

My only caveat is that I'm busy saturday nights, usually two weeks a month. I'm sure you guys will understand wink
A former member
Post #: 131
[Santiago said:]
What do you call welfare to and from regular citizens? Non-theft?

Of course it is theft, even when citizens get it, because the money was removed under the threat of force. However, that is the primary concern for many people who are anti-illegal immigration.

Of course, there are those who say that the American culture will be diluted by too many immigrants; and there are those who say that they are law-breakers primarily (because they are here illegally), so they should be kicked out.

In a way, I think this comes down to self-defense. If our own government would overthrow those countries who are a threat to us, there would be fewer reasons for people to want to come here, because they would be free of government coercion in their own countries. Not that this ought to be a goal of our foreign policy -- i.e. setting other countries free -- but in our effort to secure the rights of the citizens of this country, most of our enemies would be wiped out, leaving more ground for freedom to spring up, using the USA as a model.


Call people up, email them! We all seem to enjoy talking to friends we've made at the parties so much, why not hang out more outside of them? I'm always up for a chat over some tea, or dinner (mmm, free food.)

Free food? Are you offering me free food if I get-together with you? How generous!

However, you are correct that I think we do think of other members of NTOS as our neighbors; most do live locally. But this isn't quite what having an Objectivist enclave would be like.

And actually, that is one reason some Objectivist love to go to the major conferences -- to meet people they have heard about via the Internet or have only spoken to over the phone. It is generally quite enjoyable to get together with rational acquaintances.

Further regarding speaking out, I agree with Sherry that sometimes it can be difficult deciding how far one should go on a given issue. However, at this point, I don't think anyone considers us to be a significant enough of a threat to do anything to us -- not in my experience anyhow. Besides, that is what the police and the FBI are for, if you get threatened in any way. I was being harassed severely a while back (and harassment is a form of the initiation of force), I think because of something I wrote, but they have since crawled back into the slime-pit from which they came.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$­$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Philosophic essays based on the philosophy of Ayn Rand

www.appliedphilosophyonline.com­

Applied Philosophy Online .com

Where Ideas Are Brought Down to Earth!

tmiovas@appliedphilosophyonline.com

All rights reserved 2006 by Thomas M. Miovas, Jr.

Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 341
For some, the threat can be some as losing one's job. More on a personal level, I was thinking.

I am still all for the Objectivist cul de sac. As long as someone has a pool and trampoline, that is.
Santiago Valenzue...
sanjavalen
Dallas, TX
Post #: 165
However, you are correct that I think we do think of other members of NTOS as our neighbors; most do live locally. But this isn't quite what having an Objectivist enclave would be like.

Well, what do you think would be the difference, Tom? I'm curious.

Cheers
Lathanar
Lathanar
Dallas, TX
Post #: 237
Of course, there are those who say that the American culture will be diluted by too many immigrants; and there are those who say that they are law-breakers primarily (because they are here illegally), so they should be kicked out.
American history is rife with periods of "get rid of the immigrants" and the "anti hyphenated American". The movement against the German immigrants, the huge movement against the Irish catholics, the Chinese workers, now the Mexicans, etc. Look at some of the political platforms like the Know-Nothings from 1840 to around 1910. I do not understand the mentality behind these stances. American culture is an immigrant culture.

For the enclave. I'm all for that one actually. Not the new country part, but maybe a town or so. If the Mormons could do it, we could. All it would take is someone to actually start doing something instead of talking about it.

- Travis
A former member
Post #: 39
Travis,

Try Irvine, Caifornia. ARI is working hard on making their association stronger and more secluded/exclusive. On the surface (I'm not familiar with all the details of the organization) ARI's efforts seem to be making great possibilities for Objectivists.

There's also things throughout the country such as the VanDamme Academy (a school for teaching children to understand reality, instead of teaching them to memorize arbitrary information) which are creating hope in a sort of "enclave" setting. At the very least, those sorts of Objectivist-centered accomplishments or organizations are very encouraging.

To Thomas,

An island of Objectivists would be wonderful. I think the issues you raise about defense are the most restrictive to the idea. In Galt's Gulch the holographic barrier and the limited amount of planes (and technology in general) were sufficient for defense. It's obvious that today there's very little way to seclude a large number of people in one place for very long, due to various government uses of technology, and there's no way to effectively defend against invaders. But perhaps some group of brilliant producers is tucked away somewhere using a technology beyond our knowledge. That's doubtful, but to some extent it's an enjoyable fantasy. Unfortunately, I think a fantasy is the best we'll get as far as an Objectivist enclave is concerned.


[edited accidental deletion]
Tom
TAA1
McKinney, TX
Post #: 20
Hey everybody,

I was the one that initiated the conversation about the objectivist community.

I am always surprised by the skepticism and can't do spirit of so many. I am going to Fredericksburg next week--a German community founded two hundred years ago by--you guessed it--Germans that wanted to hang out with other Germans. There are cities, towns and countries--Israel comes to mind-- all over the world that have been founded this way. Like minded people coming together for the preservation of their way of life.

I think it can and will be done.

We live in an irrational world. I don't think it's possible for a free country to exists without enforcing specific standards for all potential immigrants. What was Galt's Gulch? Was John Galt not discriminating in his recruiting.

Tom
Sherry
SherryTX
Plano, TX
Post #: 344
Well, heck, if Tom suggested it. Then I am all for it.

By the way, a good friend of mine went to that German town a few weeks ago and said that there were three restaurants, and only 2 were open on Saturday night and only until 7PM. Our Objectivist enclave, town or cul de sac must be located within 5 miles of 24 hour food.
Besides all the other Objectivist requirement...that is the only one I need.

We already know who could run the Montessori school we will be needing.......
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