OC-Python: US.CA.Orange County's Python Community Group

OCPython meetup 2013.02(Google App Engine including with AngularJS,&more)

February 26 · 6:30 PM
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3. MIUMRZ: During the event, or sooner, RSVP to our upcoming events whereever you can say MAYBE or YES.
MEQNTI: Python-related discussion & presentations
1. MEQNR7: The topics should be:
  1. MIUN5J: ideally proposed by members before the meeting (indeed that really helps to advertise it) else can be brought up during the meeting
  2. MEQNS3: posted by members in the event comments below, and discussed-else-recorded there, in addition to talking in-person (the event comments should record else summarize the in-person talk)
MEQLF3: "Repeating on the last Tue of every 1 month"
MEQLGO: Location: An awesome hacking space (room) by the OC Airport 405 & 55Fwy in Irvine, CA 92614; includes free wifi Internet & projector & screen.
MIANK7: 2013.02.26Tue1830-2130, http://meetu.ps/q88FH :
Google App Engine including with AngularJS,
presentation by member Steve Shaffer
1. MITDZE: the featured presentation, w/sides&code walk thrus,
  *GAE is based on HADOOP(to do its BigTable storage,I think more),+why I got into Python (&I'm now even become the OCPython Co-organizer), as GAE is the hottest scalable web platform I know of available today, seemingly-uniquely allows the code one writes to support just one or a handful of users to immediately & automatically scale up millions or more simultaneous users! See more in the featured topic's discussion thread.
  *This should also be a great demo of AngularJS, Python, & OCPython.
MFM4YP: I Destiny say: this listing is under construction, including I'm planning to make it conform to event listing template MEEvtL.
MITDX1: Event listing history, in order (internal use)
1. MGJQHH: put 6-digit codes into their latest formatting per Bobby's feedback cmt.
2. MITDYX:Removed "This event has not yet been email-announced."; added MITDZE; more to do; 2013.02.25Mon2240.
3. MITFC3: based on seeing sides, renamed title from "Google App Engine with AngularJS" to "Google App Engine including with AngularJS"; pst2013.02.25Mon2258.

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DestinyArchitect

TOP-QUALITY PIZZA, PLUS SODA, for everyone RSVPing YES! (17 so far). For our mtg,
*I've just ordered & will pick-up 2 RoundTable top-quality 3-topping Pizzas: 1 King Author and 1 Meat Lovers.
**To recover cost, pizza will be $2/slice.
*If I have time, I'll also bring 4 2L bottles of various soda
**This soda will be free to all for as much as you can drink there!
*Attendees, please bring some soda (or other drinks) for you & all in the likely event I don't have time to get drinks, too.
*Aside: this service offering food & drinks for everyone who RSVPs YES is what http://Meetup.com/OCAndroid did in the many times we met at this venue, before us mtg at a restaurant as we do now.

0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  As anticipated, I won't have time to get soda& drinks,so others please bring.
  
  0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  *10 showed, plus the pizza announcement was a tad late (~1hr before the event).
  *Result:
  **$25 collected for 13 of 24 slices
  ***Why not 13*$2=$26? -Where went the missing dollar? Carl got 2 slices for $2+$1tip since 1 slice was tiny as Round Table had not cut the pizza evenly.
  **1.3 of 4 2L bottles of soda used: .5 of Coke and .8 of Sprite.
  **~7 of ~14 plates used
  **~5 of ~14 cups used.
  **Overall, factoring out the left-overs, just just covered my material cost, so it worked :-)
  
  0 · March 26
DestinyArchitect

John Sheehan http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*He says he was here even before the mtg start (was here all day) because he works at the venue; I made him a nametag now.

0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  I recall right after the meeting he also requests to be auto-RSVPed YES --same as Ryan http://meetup.com/Ora... since he's also always here.
  
  0 · March 26
DestinyArchitect

Topic: PyCharm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Py...
*~8:50pm Bobby M. now switches & brings up topic. He's a big fan. Says if you can get it for 75% off if you wait for a certain sale.
*John Sheehan says it's #1 IDE of choice except for simple projects. Before says he was using Pywin(sp?), then PyCharm "did everything I needed & more" -he was charmed! It also does HTML, CSS, so 1 stop shopping. "The 1st day I used it, it was overwhelming , as it does so much u and so well u have to learn the keystrokes."
*Bobby M. says it does runtime debugging of web apps, really hot. Thru some backend magic.

0 · February 26
- View all 3 replies
- Bobby M.
  
  The sale was the end of the world sale put on by Jetbrains. I'm not sure they'll discount so heavily until the next end of the world...
  
  0 · March 3
- A former member
  
  It might be best to just take advantage of the 50% off sales that seem to be more frequent. I'm not sure it's worth waiting for another EOTW just to save the extra 25%.
  
  1 · March 3
- Bobby M.
  
  After using it, and now just trying it with a project running nosetests, virtual environment, github, and a local git repo in the same project with 0 mess I'd be happy to pay full price for it!
  
  0 · March 3
Edward Liaw

Thanks for the presentation Steve! It was a great meeting.

0 · February 26
- Steve Shaffer
  
  My pleasure. That meeting was certainly dense with a variety of good stuff!
  
  1 · February 27
- Perla Gutierrez
  
  Indeed!!! :D
  
  0 · February 28
DestinyArchitect

MIVBPV: STRUCTURE OF EVENT COMMENTS
*Not all comment threads here conform to this but that's the goal for this & future event listings, and what I do & encourage all others to do.
*For top-level event comments:
**THE IST PARAGRAPH IS ITS TOPIC.
**Details are in the remainder & in its sub-comments.
**EACH PERSON potentially attending here has a thread, ideally just one, of their attendance & review of this event.
***If or not the person has attended is not in the thread's topic but details,esp as can change.
***This is a further development of my 1st attendance thread idea http://1.JotHere.com/3999#MICNR... .
**EACH TOPIC & ACTIVITY discussed here has a thread, ideally just one
***Whether it's proposed or actual should not be be in the thread's topic, but in it's details, including as this can change (as proposed later becomes actual then later may get nixed)
***This is a further development of my 1st activity proposal thread idea http://1.JotHere.com/3999#MISEO... .

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

ACTIVITY: our group offering & running (at-your-own-pace all-level collaborative training http://1.JotHere.com/LUMDBI ) for Python
*As OCAndroid has long done for Android https://www.google.com/search?q=...
*~1hr ago (towards the end of our mtg), I PROPOSED this, and attendees Perla & Alfred quite liked the idea, both saying they were starting to learn Python now
*So then I asked around among the other more experienced Python programmers who might be able to come up with a curriculum, and one notably replied: Edward.
**He said he works at UCR in bioinfomatcis and had even taught a class in it involving Python
**He said he might be able to come up with a curriculum, would search for it (& reply post here).
***Right now he knows of one for bioinfomatics (such as writing programs to find patterns in bio systems), but when I asked, he wasn't sure if this was too involved in that subject so might distract from mostly just learning Python, but wd check & reply-post here.

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Topic: Salt Stack http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sa...)
*~8:25pm~ (and still going on) Bobby M. brings up Salt, and as a sysadmn, he's a big fan, gives a mini-sell tech presentation which goes on as I write. He says it's the best, better than even Puppet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pu...) . Says its written in Python and truly open-source & forever free. Says works greats with virtual machines, too.
* Ryan H. asks several Qs, he seems pleased by it, too.
* Ronak asks 1 Q.
* Most attendees appear interested.

0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Since Bobby is such a Salt fan & expert, I offered that he create an announced presentation for us on Salt. He said he probably could do that, not next month, but maybe the month after that , which then would be http://meetup.com/Ora... (the proposal of this there). I recall he said he wanted to ask the Salt staff/experts he knew to better confirm & develop this idea. Just post further developments of this idea here, regardless of date.
  
  0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

IMPORTANT (as before you leave else soon after): LIKE THIS MEETING? WANT MORE? THEN PLEASE NOW RSVP for our upcoming Meetings, saying YES if YES or MAYBE; also include an RSVP comment about your attendance as "looking forward" or Why-a-maybe as "If I can ge a ride"), as these early YES RSVPs really attract more attendees & help plan
*Next meeting: http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*Next Next meeting: http://meetup.com/Orange-County...

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Topic: AngularJS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An...
*2104- With a smile, I remind to talk about this, I want to hear more of it!
*Steve Shaffer says it's really cool Google's vision & suggestion for HTML6, Google Chrome Canary (the nightly builds) has these features built in,
*Steve shows his AngularJS app synchroq.appspot.com ; will give "The application SynchroQ is requesting permission to access your Google Account."; Steve Shaffer says this just means your Google account email so you can say Ok. It will ask "New Set Key"; Steve says this is the room key, for us use "OCPUG"

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Topic: Github http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gi...
*~8:45pm Bobby M. now switches & brings up this topic. He's also a big fan of this.
*Steve S. says he has a github client on for the Mac which he really loves, including has splitting a commit into under multiple usernames.

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Dan Stromburg http://meetup.com/Orange-County... (group head)
Here's our SMSes relevant to his attendance, quote(
Dan Stromberg: I might not be able to make it tonight; my 7 year old is very sick. 4:59 PM
Me: Sorry to hear. Only u can set ur RSVP comment: best if on the listing http://meetu.ps/q88FH u update ur RSVP & quote/include that cmt. 5:32 PM)
*since I don't see any cmts from him here & he's still RSVPed YES but not here, I now change his RSVP NO.
*Wish u cd be here, we're having a hot mtg now, including lots of great tech talk & learning! Also best wishes with ur 7yr old.

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Bobby M. http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*arrived ~7min ago. Now asking good Qs.
*He hadn't RSVPed so I let him know to do so next time, even if a MAYBE, as it attracts more attendance & helps keep track of attendance, and I RSVPed him YES now & made him a nametag.

0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Bobby M. said a few min ago he's a sysadmin, and a huge fan of Salt & now giving a mini-presentation on that http://meetup.com/Ora...
  
  0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Perla Gutierrez http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*She arrived 10min before mtg start (6:20pm) -nice! I made her a nametag now.

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Ronak http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*He arrived 6:25pm; made him a nametag now.

0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Ryan Hewitt http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*He was here before mtg start as he's part of SmartSoft.
*He's says he didn't interact much on Meetup so didn't RSVP; I explain that RSVPing helps attract attendees & makes it easier to keep attendance. So he asks since he's always been here for the last 6+ mtgs, asks if there is way to auto-RSVP. There is, by making him an event host, and so I told him I would set that up for subsequent meetings (well just so his RSVP is auto-YES for now) and he agreed if he wasn't going to be here he would set it to a NO. I also set his RSVP here now to YES. Also make him a nametag now.

0 · February 26
Edward Liaw

I'll be there :D

0 · February 11
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Edward Liaw http://meetup.com/Ora... arrived ~6:40pm, made him a nametag now.
  
  0 · February 26
Alfred Kay

I am new to Python and like the feature of the language. Would like to learn more from many experts at OCPython group.

0 · February 19
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Glad to have you, Alfred!
  *And yes this should be a great meetup for exploring some of the most powerful and/or cool stuff python can do (GAE), so please RSVP, ideally YES.
  *Also very soon put a good pic of urself on ur profile! -indeed http://1.JotHere.com/... will soon be our pic standard (as it has been for years on http://Meetup.com/OCA... ) and will guide u in getting a great pic.
  *Reading ur profile I see u're at Sage -cool! I was just 1st there Feb13 for talk on Agile Data (via HADOOP & MongoDB) http://meetup.com/OC-... with an amazing 50 attendance. Welcome, Alfred!
  
  0 · February 20
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Alfred Key http://meetup.com/Ora... arrived here ~6:30pm, made him a nametag now.
  
  0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

Carl Byington http://meetup.com/Orange-County...
*He arrived ~6:30pm; is asking good Qs. I made him a nametag now.

0 · February 26
Steve Shaffer

Ok, so I assume I'm on for presenting at this one then?

0 · February 19
- View all 4 replies
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Yes,absolutely,as event description already reads "Google App Engine with AngularJS Presentation" --I and many are quite looking forward to your presentation. Indeed, you'll be the star of the show! --the only presentation & topic we're doing for this meeting and already 9 RSVP YESes here and talked about some in other Meetup groups, so I'm expecting 10 to 30 in attendance. http://1.JotHere.com/... gives you complete step-by-step directions for you (and any member) to create a great presentation for our Meetup group, well proven by OCAndroid -just follow that. While I'm super burdened with the 4 big Meetup events I'm advertising and hosting in the next few days, I'll try to advertise your talk on other Meetup groups and SCaLE this weekend http://meetu.ps/wXzBj specifically our booth staffers will sell it up in our SCaLE booth detailed there --unless that's too much pressure for you now and you're up for doing it again say within 2months. Way to go, Steve!
  
  0 · February 20
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Doing my job 2drum up attendees,
  *Since GAE uses HADOOP, I verbally announced this presentation @the last HADOOP mtg http://meetup.com/OC-... w/51 attendees,&unless Steve says not2 to for some reason,I'll today make an event cmt of it there,+do more ads of this there&elsewhere as time.
  *At our awesome SCaLE visit&booth this last Fri-Sun(4most all of u RSVPing YES here,u missed an AWESOME time),at my request,this Steve's presentation was the highlight of the verbal promotion OCPython by all my 6 booth workers(all from OCAndroid -we cd hv used more OCPython mbrs!!) resulting in several SCaLE visitors saying they would come see this presentation, even coming as far as LA, and including joining OC-Python to do so, as detailed at http://meetup.com/Ora... .
  *Steve,if u hv a min, pls reply-post here w/:
  **Presentation URLs
  **w/there else here What attendees sd expect at ur talk
  **Sd I do further ads?
  
  0 · February 25
- Steve Shaffer
  
  Thanks Destiny.
  Just planning to keep it real informal. I've got some talking points and some demo apps/code that I can go through as people are interested.
  
  My notes/"presentation" is here: bit.ly/ocpuggae
  (trying something a little different than "slides")
  
  Feel free to promote, but I'm certainly no expert; just trying to give an introduction to a platform I enjoy.
  
  0 · February 25
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Steve is now here midway thru his talk. 10 people have arrived here so far.
  
  0 · February 26
DestinyArchitect

My attendance.
*I'm at Pep Boys Costa Mesa where they promised my car would be ready at 6:00pm but it is just ready now. My ETA is 20 min with picking up the pizza.
*Please greet & socialize & start talking about Python, holding off the start of the presentation & formal meeting until I get there unless folks just can't wait.

0 · February 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  I arrived ~10min ago & set up pizza & sodas I brought, and now taking attendance & making nametags.
  
  0 · February 26
Bill Zwicky

Sorry! Want to see this, but homework interferes. :(

0 · February 26
Bill Zwicky

Got homework to do, but will come if I can.

0 · February 25
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Bill SMSes me "Homework interferes, I can't make it to the meeting tonight. Sorry! 6:15 PM" so I changed his RSVP to NO.
  
  0 · February 26
Brian Lau

Sorry, something came up

0 · February 26
danleibson

Looking forward to it

0 · February 22
danleibson

I am a total Python novice working through udacity and codeacademy with an end goal of web development and data analysis. Would really like to start interacting with other PyDev's and seeing the art of the possible. Will this group/meetup be totally out of my league?

0 · February 21
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Not at all. We cater to all levels. Just stick with it, and also share (as reply here) with the good (or bad) python training ur finding & doing.
  
  0 · February 21
Michael McTernan

Newbie, learnign some Python hope to meet some col people and learn something

0 · February 12
Michael McTernan

Newbie, learnign some Python hope to meet some col people and learn something

0 · February 12
Bobby M.

Meetup sounds good. What's with all of the tags at each list item? Is it necessary or can we hide them?

0 · December 20
- View all 5 replies
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Bobby, yes the version of the description you saw didn't yet explain this, so thanks for asking. So per your appropriate question, just now I've added to the event description "MFM4YP: I Destiny say: this listing is under construction, including I'm planning to make it conform to event listing template MEEvtL http://1.JotHere.com/... ." which says “LG4OWH: What are these codes as “LG4OWH” on this paragraph? They’re short IDs to date-stamp & uniquely-reference most anything http://1.jothere.com/... .” which tells what they're for, much of what they do, and why they are important at least long-term, plus will eventually also mention, "Yes, they aren't pretty" plus explain how fully hiding them is tricky & sometimes impossible. Especially once construction is complete, I will be hiding as times permits, as best as possible in this medium.
  
  0 · December 25
- Bobby M.
  
  I don't think they're appropriate. Meetup gives us enough tools to follow meetups, and these tags are simply cluttering up what is already there. Can you consider bringing it to the attention of the group why they are important instead of going forward with them? I think an outsider, who may not be familiar with this kind of issue tracking could be turned off by your posts with all the extra jibba-jabba.
  
  0 · December 26
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Dear Bobby (cmt1of2):
  Sorry you can't yet see the logic in these small codes (or at least don't agree) & r apparently getting so upset of them, but:
  *as the person doing the work. I _do_ find they have overall benefit
  *and have been doing them for years,
  *and have volunteered to co-organizer and so now doing hours every week for our group to insuring (which generally means me doing) notable important group admin gets done that typically wasn't getting done in the past as no apparently no one else volunteered to do it, including insuring that speakers & activities & if need be, venues, are found and scheduled & properly listed & members get properly processed & group standards are set & upheld; and testing & developing these codes for http//JotHere.com is part of the otherwise 0 compensation that I get for doing this (besides recognition, but I'm not seeking clients&jobs).
  
  0 · January 12
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Dear Bobby (cmt1of2):
  *Moreover,this listing always said in bold "under construction"&even told of the planned change, so:
  **1 likely is most helpful 2read that fully & esp wait until complete before criticizing it so strongly&repeatedly
  **indeed the listing has improved: crediting you there, I've minimized the codes per the format it already let you know it would go to
  ***--the eventual format also used & and better demo'd on the largely complete http://meetup.com/OCA...
  *&we've already gotten 7 YES RSVPs 1mo in adv&b4 this has even been email-announced,so the codes don't seem to be stopping too many.
  *However I do see u've benefited to this group by attending 3 of our events; sd u truly want to give back, might suggest instead, as I'm doing, volunteering to add to us things we clearly need, as finding & organizing speakers, activities, and, when needed, venues?
  
  0 · January 12
- Bobby M.
  
  Instead of going back and forth, let's make this part of the next meetup!
  
  0 · January 13
DestinyArchitect

DATE

0 · December 8
- View all 9 replies
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Since this event is set "Repeating on the last Tue of every 1 month" it currently falls on "Tuesday, December 25, 2012" (Christmas) but of course it won't be happening then. Stay tuned for its correct date and update ur RSVPs accordingly.
  
  0 · December 8
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Just scheduled this to end at 9:30pm per ending at 9:37pm last time per time of cmt http://meetup.com/Ora...
  
  0 · December 8
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Just SCHEDULE THIS FOR 2013.01.08tue per discussion of that date where the topic was proposed http://meetup.com/Ora... .
  *Still need to confirm the venue will be be available then.
  **As that says, the calendar https://www.google.com... is free then; so I will try to confirm with the venue.
  **John Sheehan http://meetup.com/Ora... , I understand you have a key to the venue; so an you let us in then?
  
  0 · December 8
- A former member
  
  I'm not available on 1/8. Rather than have 2 meetings in January why don't we just have it on the normally scheduled day - last Tuesday of the month (1/29).
  
  0 · December 10
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Well Steve & I were hoping to give Steve's talk sooner, but since you can't make it and at this point we don't have any other way to get into the room that I know of (including venue admin Michelle http://www.meetup.com... has not replied to my SMS on that), ok, NOW MOVING THIS TO THE LAST TUE OF THE MONTH: 2013.01.29tue , including I checked and on http://www.meetup.com... I'm clear on that day.
  
  0 · December 11
- Steve Shaffer
  
  Ya sorry guys, but I definitely can't make it on 1/29. I can hold the topic for February if everyone would like.
  
  0 · December 16
- DestinyArchitect
  
  I've just added mbr Dave Ford http://meetup.com/Ora... to the RSVP list (currently as YES) since 1st we possibly could need him to open up the room for this (say if John Sheehan wasn't available so want to alert him of the discussion, plus 2nd he probably would want to attend this a presentation on Google App Engine.
  
  0 · December 19
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Presenter Steve writes "I definitely can't make it on 1/29. . I can hold the topic for February.."; thanks for update but major bummer esp since I esp wanted to see this presentation soon and getting the room on non-standard dates (to do it sooner) can be tough. But per that & related overall mtg scheduling point MFAXXC of http://meetup.com/Ora... , UNLESS SOMEONE (as John Sheehan or Dave Ford or others with a key) CAN EARLIER OPEN THE Smart-Soft ROOM FOR US (any takers? -click "Reply" here) and a on a date the presenter can make, in ~1 day I'm rescheduling this listing (for our Google App Engine presentation) from 2013.01.29tue(std last tue) to 2013.02.26tue(last tue), then for 2013.01.29tue will schedule a std OC-Python mtg for something else.
  
  0 · December 19
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Per my last comment, I just did that chage (Steve http://meetup.com/Ora... 's Google App Engine Presentation is now on 2013.02.26tue), and accordingly I've updated Steve's RSVP from NO to YES. Everyone else, please also update ur RSVP according to this new mtg date for this. Also be sure to RSVP (esp if it can be a YES) for our new replacement 2013.01 mtg http://meetup.com/Ora... . Thx!
  
  0 · December 25
DestinyArchitect

RELEVANT RELATED PRESENTATIONS

0 · December 12
- DestinyArchitect
  
  Today at 6pm is http://MapR.com in Irvine http://meetup.com/OC-... -42 RSVP YESes so far.
  
  0 · December 12
DestinyArchitect

TOPIC

0 · December 8
- DestinyArchitect
  
  "a brief overview of Google App Engine" by member Steve Shaffer http://meetup.com/Ora... , which he in-writing 1st proposed at http://meetup.com/Ora... - see that for further details including on talk of When.
  
  1 · December 8
- DestinyArchitect
  
  I just RSVPed Steve Shaffer YES per his saying he can make this date and his planned presenting. Steve, just RSVP NO then YES again to add a public RSVP comment plus see & answer the subsequent private RSVP Qs.
  
  0 · December 8

16 attended

DestinyArchitect

of Orange; 2011.09.27-,21+RSVPs,10+attends;grp admin+JS&SQL, Co-Organizer

Event Host
Dave Ford
Michael McTernan
Raul

of Lake Forest; 2013.02.24-,5+RSVPs,3+attends,beg; Linux admin
Bill Fox

of LA; 2013.02.19-,1+RSVPs,1+attends; into HADOOP
Perla Gutierrez

of Huntington Bch; 2012.08.21-,3+RSVPs,2+attend,2do Python webap
Steve Shaffer

of Rancho SM; 2012.11.17-,4+RSVPs,3+attend,GAE+AngularJS speaker
Jerry Bui
Ryan Hewitt

of Newport Bch; 2012.08.20-,8+RSVPs,5+attends;SmartSoft coder
Bobby M.

of Lake Forest; 2012.01.22-,7+RSVPs,4+attends,SALT admin
Ronak
Alfred Kay

of Irvine; 2013.02.09-,2+RSVPs,1+attends;Sage SAP CRM/ERP dvlpr
Edward Liaw

of Laguna Niguel; 2012.09.05-,8+RSVPs,3+attends;UCR bioinfomath
Carl Byington

of Laguna Niguel; 2013.02.25+,5+RSVPs,2+attends;coder;NEEDS PIC!
danleibson
A former member