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Plato's Cave - The Orlando Philosophy Meetup Group Message Board › Is Religion bad for Women?

Is Religion bad for Women?

Ben Forbes G.
Epicurean306
Orlando, FL
Post #: 257
Gorillas have had ample free time to build their own Parthenon, had they wanted to.
Humor aside, the point of that sentence is that lack of free time is not what holds back gorillas from rivaling humankind's artistic achievements, just as "primitive" human cultures were not held back from artistic greatness by lack of free time, and many have indeed produced extraordinary works of art despite other limitations (in addition to multifarious intricate artistic wonders that have unfortunately not been preserved due to their medium/materials). biggrin
Rami K.
Rammy
Orlando, FL
Post #: 431
Alright, the problem still exists, an equivalence is setup, where none exists. Humans make intricate art, the capacity, ability, and will for such exists there; the same is not the case with gorillas. It is an interesting tell, or some form of ridiculousness beyond me, which inspires such a relation. And then I still do not see the connection between this point, absurdness aside, to the thread topic, but perhaps that is only my own lacking.

Perhaps we may be blessed by a woman who may step in and place the thread back on track, if not at least end it.

Ben Forbes G.
Epicurean306
Orlando, FL
Post #: 258
The only point of the analogy was that greater free-time is clearly not the enabling factor for artistic accomplishments (because hunter-gathers and gorillas both have lots of free time, but only the former naturally produce art). Division of labor helps, though that often traditionally tends to be very gendered... but there are amazing artists even in tiny and primitive human societies, historically and currently; they just work often with less enduring materials. Anyway, this issue is somewhat off topic from the realities of how bad religions are for women... I was merely describing a broad history of human gender roles in various types of societies.
A former member
Post #: 11
Visit radio4 womans hour

which was a link in blog - Is religion bad for women?

What do you think?
If you go by the mainstream religions, then yes. But, within the Native culture they are respected. They were and continue to be leaders of our people. Generally speaking all Native cultures throughout the world respect their
women.
Rami K.
Rammy
Orlando, FL
Post #: 471
Quoted from: 10 Things I BET You Did Not Know About ISLAM.
    7. Women Rights & Islam is a SYNONYM.

    Surprise!! Here’s a rhetorical trivia! Guess the FIRST University in the world? The University of Al-Qarawiyyin in Fez, Morocco. Founded by Fatima al-Fihri in 859. SHE founded it. SHE founded the FIRST UNIVERSITY.

    It was lawful. It was encouraged and heck yeah it was celebrated! Women(Muslims or Non) Rights existed over 1400 years ago. Our Lady Khadijah, peace upon her – was a successful entrepreneur. SHE HIRED the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, to work for her.

    The best scholar of hadith(traditions) was our Lady Aisha, peace upon her. The men had to go to her and study FROM her. When all of civilizations demeaned women with ideas of them carrying original sin, burying of female infants, treated as sex slaves,not allowed to pursue education, Islam removed ALL of that and was the FIRST to introduce fair distribution of wealth and property to women. The Sacred Book itself declares numerous versus of how women are integrating, equal halves of the human race.

    Guess how Islam decides who is BEST in character??

    The best of you are those who treat your wife best.



    All ma ladies in the halal club put your hands up!


What is probably even more interesting is Fynding Noor's most recent post, What if your sister got raped?

I echo Mastura Noor's sign-off, "Let’s educate our boys, empower our girls and build a society of trust, love and compassion. "
Rami K.
Rammy
Orlando, FL
Post #: 472


Ben Forbes G.
Epicurean306
Orlando, FL
Post #: 265
*sigh*angry So much obsolete/antiquated and just plain bad revisionist history, risible excuses for omitting or ignoring the inexcusable, misplaced blame as well as credit, and anecdotal-evidence/cherry-picking fallacies as well as cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies... both in your posts and in the TED talk.crying

Admittedly, it can be tempting to praise Islam IF we are judging it by the standards of its time (i.e. favorably describing various aspects of early Islam through the *mostly* unified Umayyad/Abbasid caliphate as compared to its neighboring conquests/rivals which were arguably relatively less progressive, in some aspects: such as the Persians, Byzantines, Dark Ages / Early Medieval Europeans, etc.). What I mean by this is that early Islam was fairly cosmopolitan, religiously and racially pluralistic and relatively tolerant, etc. compared to some of its aforementioned neighboring conquests/rivals (and even gave women relatively more rights and protections, in some cases). This helps explain why, for example, Islam conquered so much territory so fast with such relatively small armies and managed to hold it: one reason this was possible is that there were many places where Muslims were viewed as liberators and preferred compared to the previous ruling factions they had conquered... None of this, however, means that Islam is something to admire or encourage today, because that was then and this is now... Moreover, none of Islam's past means that Muslim views regarding women were (or are) even close to optimally healthy: whether back then, or especially now, by the best available modern standards. Polygamy is inherently sexist, as are arranged marriages in any patriarchal society (as opposed to polyamory or plural marriages allowed between consenting adults of any gender).

Aisha was six or seven years old when she was married to Muhammad and NINE when the marriage was consummated. That sort of “love” puts perpetrators in jail in civilized nations today; conscientious modern people should NOT be taking lessons in “love” or ethics from Muhammad or holding him up as a paragon of any sort of exceptional virtue to base a legal system on, period; he was not even particularly admirable by the best standards of his time, let alone by the best available standards today! Also, Muhammad was a warlord, not a peaceful or loving “dove” of nonviolent character! I'm sure the thousands who died on Arabian swords in the centuries of rapid Islamic conquest during and after Muhammad's lifetime could really feel the “love” from beyond their graves or funeral-pyres (even if some “conquered” peoples viewed the Muslims as “liberators” and preferred their rule relative to that of the Persians, Byzantines, etc. at the time). Uniting squabbling tribes to allow them to band-together and conquer foreign rivals/adversaries to relatively rapidly form a massive theocratic caliphate is NOT a “loving” or laudable legacy (no matter how multiethnic or pluralistic the Muslim empire was, how learned it used to be [past tense] for a time during its golden age, or how many religious rights it once allowed to conquered peoples who were initially second-class and largely remained so unless they converted to Islam)! We should condemn Muhammad and his awful legacy that remains a scourge on humankind; the reality is that it's sad and asinine that anyone today would seriously base their lives on such a primitive “prophet's” teachings — sadly, Dar al-Islam remains largely ruled by fear and characterized by disgustingly primitive oppression, rampant and inexcusable sexism, and even the potentially hopeful fruits of the “Arab Spring” seem uncertain, stymied, and perilous.

Reasonable people who are feminist allies can debate optimal ideals between a “voluntary modesty” and “family-values” versus more of a “flaunting-of-sexuality” or “sex-positive” libertine approach to the ethical aesthetics of women's fashion and sexual behavior — but practices, expectations, requirements, and customs in this sphere in the overwhelming majority of Muslim nations under any version of Sharia law are unacceptably coercive and unequivocally sexist, period. Many cultures throughout history have had deplorable problems with attitudes toward virginity and engaged in egregiously excessive and prudish “slut-shaming” (virgin/whore complex, purity obsession, etc.) — but Muslim countries tend to be worse than most. There is no excuse, and it needs to change ASAP; on my view, there is simply no way any version of Islam could coherently be even close to an ideal “peak” on any legitimate version of a progressive feminist moral landscape in any future worth advocating for! And, for some who would prefer to be apologists for that which ought to be condemned and abandoned, this truth hurts.sad But people need to be confronted with it nonetheless. It's a dangerous delusion completely out of touch with reality to imagine that Islam should be considered compatible with truly authentic and thoroughgoing modern feminism.devilish
Rami K.
Rammy
Orlando, FL
Post #: 479
I am not a proponent of child marriage. What is missed however is that the prophet made many claims with regard to Aisha in particular, speaking specifically of her mental capacity, how she was already surprising in terms of her intellectual prowess, and then how he dedicated himself in seeing to it that she would not only receive the best education available, but that it was a sacred duty to do so. He knew the decision to marry such a youngster would be controversial when it took place, and again I am more interested in her own account of what all of this would have been like for her at the time. Today we have only to listen to those children forced into child marriages to get a feel for perhaps what it would have been like. Certainly her life and some rendering of her perspective as it is understood by Islmanic feminists would make for a story worthy of any major production house. Here is something of her background and influence Aisha's Contributions to Islam and influence.

As for one man casting judgement over another, I believe Silas provides a more compelling argument than Ben.
Rami K.
Rammy
Orlando, FL
Post #: 484



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Ben Forbes G.
Epicurean306
Orlando, FL
Post #: 266
Praising Aisha does nothing to redeem or make excuses for Muhammad or Islam. Moreover, the sources you've cited make and expand my points for me and support my overal argument that the majority of religions in general, and especially Islam in particular, are unequivocally bad for women and promote deplorably sexist positions/traditions that are incompatible with feminism.sad
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