Re: [Progressive-Singles-SF-Bay-Area] What do you think about paid sponsorship for our group???

From: Bruce W.
Sent on: Friday, July 23, 2010 12:12 PM
Hey Peter,

Thanks much for your psychological analysis of my response to your advocating for GE.   Could you tell us more about the Marshal Plan that might shed some light on how I might deal with my unresolved anger issues, because when I just now did a search on Wikepedia, the results were not that helpful.  Here is some of what I found.

"Criticism of the Marshall Plan became prominent among historians of the revisionist school, such as Walter LaFeber, during the 1960s and 1970s. They argued that the plan was American economic imperialism, and that it was an attempt to gain control over Western Europe just as the Soviets controlled Eastern Europe."

And we here this from Allen Greenspan! - "Former U.S. Chairman of the Federal Reserve Bank Alan Greenspan gives most credit to Ludwig Erhard for Europe's economic recovery. Greenspan writes in his memoir The Age of Turbulence that Erhard's economic policies were the most important aspect of postwar Western Europe recovery, far outweighing the contributions of the Marshall Plan. He states that it was Erhard's reductions in economic regulations that permitted Germany's miraculous recovery, and that these policies also contributed to the recoveries of many other European countries. Japan's recovery is also used as a counter-example, since it experienced rapid growth without any aid whatsoever."

And from the most progressive academic in America - "Noam Chomsky wrote that the amount of American dollars given to France and the Netherlands equaled the funds these countries used to finance their military forces in southeast Asia. The Marshall Plan was said to have "set the stage for large amounts of private U.S. investment in Europe, establishing the basis for modern transnational corporations".

Also - "Other criticism of the Marshall Plan stemmed from reports that the Netherlands used a significant portion of the aid it received to re-conquer Indonesia in the Indonesian National Revolution and was forced into joining the Korean War in 1950 after threats the project would end if it did not comply."

That last one reminds me of Bush's "coalition of the willing" that he coerced to fight in Iraq.

It appears to me that "expression(s) of human decency" are not always what they appear to be.  So I think it might be wise to be a little more diligent about our research, to dig a little deeper, dig below the persona that GE is projecting.

In regard to "the past ills of a corporation" the research that I did on GE indicate the "ills" of that international corporation are not exactly something you could describe as medical - more in the vein of the criminal.  And they don't appear to be exactly in the past either.  Here are a few salient excerpts:

May 18, 2010:  GE���s Challenge to Superfund Argued at D.C. Circuit

"At the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit this morning, lawyers for the General Electric Co. and the Environmental Protection Agency sparred over the constitutionality of a legal tool used to force the cleanup of hazardous waste sites."

"The D.C. Circuit appeal is the latest chapter in a decade-long effort by GE to prove that a provision of the federal Superfund statute is unconstitutional."

"Phillips argued that the EPA���s use of such orders violates the private party���s due process rights. That���s because companies must spend money to clean up and take a hit to their market value caused by the bad publicity of being labeled a polluter before getting a chance to challenge the order in court, Phillips said."

(Here's the link to the above article: http://legaltimes.typepad.com/blt/2010/05/ges-challenge-to-superfund-argued-at-dc-circuit.html)

That last quote kind of says it all -  "companies must spend money to clean up and take a hit to their market value caused by the bad publicity of being labeled a polluter..."  And to put it in context take a look at the following with the sections I highlighted.

It���s been a very long time coming, but there���s finally some
measurable progress in the Hudson River PCB remediation
project. The problem of PCB contamination has dominated the
Hudson River Valley for more than 40 years. Listed under the
Comprehensive Environmental Response, Compensation, and
Liability Act (CERCLA) on the National Priorities List in 1984, this
200-mile stretch of Hudson River is one of nation���s largest Superfund
sites. After much negotiation and litigation, in 2002 the US Environmental
Protection Agency (EPA) issued a Record of Decision (ROD)
requiring General Electric (GE) to remediate PCB-contaminated
sediment ���hot spots��� along a 40-mile stretch of the Upper Hudson,
north of the Federal Dam at Troy. Since then, the remedial design
process has proceeded slowly, often tediously, but there is now
tangible progress with dredging scheduled to begin in 2009.


This article was titled: The Hudson River PCB Cleanup ��� A Light at the Endof the Tunnel.
Here's the link: http://www.clearwater.org/clearwater.org/pdf/ClearwatersPCBarticle.pdf

After all these years, GE is still fighting the effort to make it clean up after itself.  That is criminal, not the "the past ills of a corporation." 

As for their investment in clean energy, it is just that, an investment, and they will do everything possible to take as much advantage of that investment as possible to maximize their profits whether or not those investments eventually end up harming others or the environment.

Finally Peter, as for your above statement, "so I actually agree with him that discourse between us would be a total
waste of time", I only said the discussion of GE sponsorship was not worth anybody's time discussing further.  I think it is entirely worthwhile discussing GE's criminal past and present with you or anyone else in the group that deems it a worthwhile topic.  But I would prefer it was a discussion about the international corporation phenomenon itself and their control over governments worldwide.

But again, I have to wonder about your taking the position of an apologist for GE.  It just doesn't seem to me that you do much in-depth research of the issues.  If you detected anger in my first response to you, yes there was some anger behind it, because I wouldn't expect an apologist for GE to join a progressive singles group and spend so much time promoting their logo for our meetup page.  If we want logos on our meetup page, they should be logos of environmental and conservation groups, not the logos of international criminal corporations. 

And if you want to know just now long that criminal record is, please take a look at this website:

http://paulsjusticepage.com/reality-of-justice/ch2-class.htm


Happy reading,
Bruce


From: Peter Clark <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Fri, July 23, 2010 8:59:54 AM
Subject: Re: [Progressive-Singles-SF-Bay-Area] What do you think about paid sponsorship for our group???

Tim:

Thanks for your comment.

I did not believe that the angry person's comments deserved the
dignity of a reply from me. It is my belief that it is his attitude
and inappropriate projections of his own unresolved anger issues onto
other people.that is the problem, more so than the past ills of a
corporation.

Germany and Japan also did some nasty things in the past, and Germany
was punished for it in 1918 with The Treaty of Versailles, setting up
World War II. Fortunately, American leadership was much more
enlightened in 1945, as demonstrated by our enacting the Marshal Pan
rather than punitive reparations.

I don;t believe that said angry person is someone who will ever
understand the power of such an expression of human decency, so I
actually agree with him that discourse between us would be a total
waste of time.

It is nice to know that unresolved anger is not the driving force for
others in the group.

Peter



On 7/22/10, Tim <[address removed]> wrote:
>
>  You���re welcome? Just so this doesn���t devolve into an internet type of
> mudslinging can we agree on making clear, non-personal statements? Thanks,
>  Tim
>
>
>  On 7/22/10 2:11 PM, "Mr A. Phipps" <[address removed]> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for not blindly taking a bribe!
>
>
>
>  On Thu, Jul 22, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Tim <[address removed]> wrote:
>
> Hi All,
>
>  So I���ve heard GE wants to sponsor of course but what does that mean,
> exactly? Are they willing to invest in community projects like the ones
> Peter mentioned? Or would they willing to sponsor the group for a vacation
> in Tahiti, because I can definitely be bought : ) But really, what is it
> they are offering and in exchange for what? Their logo on the website, what
> are their terms. GE has done some good things in spite of their huge
> investment in weapons and nuclear etc. etc. If they would be willing to
> invest big bucks for community projects then I can see it being worth it but
> I doubt they would  agree to that just to be associated with a Meetup group.
> But I���m just guessing. It would be good to know if they had mentioned any
> specifics.
>  Tim
>
>
>
>  On 7/22/10 1:21 PM, "Bruce Wilson" <[address removed]
> <http://[address removed]> > wrote:
>
>
> Hi Peter,
>
>  I must say, I'm quite shocked by what you have written in defense of taking
> money from GE.  It makes me wonder what your motivations are for being an
> apologist for one of the biggest corporate criminals in American history.
> It doesn't take much research to find dirt on GE.  I found the following
> link in about 30 seconds.  Please check it out.  There is probably much more
> under the Google search I did - "crimes of General Electric."
>
> http://www.opednews.com/articles/Earth-s-Enemies-GE-Monsa-by-Rady-Ananda-090516-430.html
>
>  Another baffling statement you've made upon joining this group:
>  "We have the opportunity to  facilitate the transformation of our society
> into life affirming sustainability, as  Madison Avenue did in the 1950's. If
> we work together on incremental steps, we can also have fun along the way."
>
>  Madison Avenue is the propagandist for the corporate criminals that run
> this country.  They have contributed nothing to sustainable living.in
> their promotion of the military industrial complex which
> President Eisenhower warned against.  They have only worked their asses off
> for their own monetary gain and against any kind of sane economic life
> affirming sustainability.
>
>  I do have to wonder if you are making these kind of statements to
> instigate infighting and distract us from any kind of sensible pragmatic
> progressive discussions and activities, just as a plant from homeland
> security would be doing.
>
>  Personally, I have no more time and energy to give to this topic of GE
> sponsorship.  I have already in this email given far more than it is worth
> for any of us to spend on it.
>
>  Bruce
>
>
>
>
>  ________________________________
> From: Peter Clark <[address removed] <http://[address removed]> >
>  To: [address removed]
> <http://[address removed]>
>  Sent: Thu, July 22, 2010 10:30:39 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Progressive-Singles-SF-Bay-Area] What do you
> think about paid  sponsorship for our group???
>
>
>  I would like to add some counterpoint to the sponsorship debate:
>
>  I have run across GE in some interesting places-
>
>  For example, I bought double-wide trailers from GE Capital to
>  construct a family center and Head Start facility in South Sacramento
>  in 1993. The program totally transformed a low-income neighborhood
>  from what was known, as "Danger Island", with 435 police calls every
>  year in 1990, to a model community with shared gardens, Head Start,
>  after-school programs for kids, computer literacy classes and other
>  job training, English as a Second Language, and zero police calls for
>  the entire year by 1996. I did that using a grant from the Federal
>  Government, even though there was a lot about American politics that I
>  didn���t like. But that didn���t stop me from using the money to improve
>  the lives of thousands of people. And I would gladly have accepted the
>  facility for fee in exchange for calling it the GE Family Center.
>
>  We have the opportunity to do similar things in the Bay Area,
>  particularly Oakland and Richmond. But it will not be by adapting  a
>  holier-than-thou attitude.
>
>  I see the possibility of an entirely new set of alliances emerging in
>  American Politics as a result of the unique economic, social,
>  environmental, and political situation that we are presently in, if we
>  can be open to the possibilities.
>
>  Che Guevera was quoted as saying ���I envy you who are in America,
>  because you are in the belly of the beast.��� Thus, Che was wise enough
>  to understand that it was not America that was the problem, it was
>  American leadership, and that can change. For example- Obama, a man of
>  peace and principle, is the Commander and Chief of the US Armed
>  Forces. This underscores the fact that the American military has not
>  been the problem. The problem has been the civilian leadership.
>
>  If we are truly progressive, would we not be open for a change in
>  attitude, and approach?
>
>  Or are we as rigid in our thinking as we project onto the reactionaries?
>
>  We could certainly be cynical- Some Obama Administration policies are
>  looking more and more like they were fabricated by Cheney, for
>  example. But does some of that have to do with a need to survive?
>  Kennedy had some revolutionary ideas where they mattered most, and
>  history has recorded where that took him. Lincoln had revolutionary
>  ideas as well- including for a monetary system that was not controlled
>  by the Rothschilds et al. It didn���t take much for the powers that be
>  to ed that discussion.
>
>  I did organizing against G.E. in the early '70s- in particular
>  regarding their connections to electronic battlefield technology,
>  however Westinghouse was the worst offender from what I could see, and
>  I don���t think that has changed. These two companies have been rivals
>  for 100 years (GE came out of Edison���s technology, and Westinghouse
>  from Tesla). G.E. builds locomotives and windmills, and control
>  systems for transit, and G.E. has resources that would be incredibly
>  useful in the transformation of our country, and our world, to a
>  sustainable model. Westinghouse still seems stuck in the past. If I
>  were to choose sides, I would pick GE.
>
>  A corporation is a structure for people to work together. How about if
>  we ignore the structure for a moment, and look at the possibility of
>  opening a dialog with people? How about if we use our influence as
>  people to re-direct the wrong-headedness and move onto a positive
>  track.
>
>  I would like to suggest a new psychology- How about:
>  ���The revolution is over and we won.���
>
>  Now comes the incredibly difficult task of rebuilding our society as
>  we would want it. We, literally, now have the opportunity to create a
>  new world, as long as we don���t much with the Rothschild gang. But it
>  is a world that will not be changed instantly, or willingly, as Obama
>  has discovered.
>
>  The change must start with ourselves.
>
>  Does this mean that the group should accept sponsorship from GE?
>
>  I don���t know, but I would like the idea to not be rejected yet. I am
>  new to the group, but it is my impression that the group was formed to
>  be for socialization, not for political activism,  And I appreciate
>  the fact that we are engaging in this dialog over the internet, and
>  not at a gathering. The potluck was wonderful, and I would like that
>  positive energy to be maintained.
>
>  Any thoughts?
>
>  Peter
>
>
>
>
>  > ----- Original message -----
>  > From: "Sumi" <[address removed]
> <http://[address removed]> >
>  > To: [address removed]
> <http://[address removed]>
>  > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 18:19:31 -0400
>  > Subject: RE: [Progressive-Singles-SF-Bay-Area] What do
> you
>  > think about paid sponsorship for our group???Hi Everyone,
>  >
>  > I've heard a few vehement "no's" from some members (as I thought might
>  > happen), so I just rejected the offer as I had originally been intending
> to
>  > do - thanks for the feedback!  I might ask a local progressive attorney
> if
>  > she would be interested in sponsoring. She's been an activist and
>  > progressive for many years. I don't know if she would, but I would
> endorse
>  > her /recommend her to anyone who needed ethical legal services, including
>  > estate planning. Any thoughts on that?
>  >
>  > Sumi
>  >
>  >  ________________________________
>  >  From: [address removed]
> <http://[address removed]>
>  > To: [address removed]
> <http://[address removed]>
>  > Subject: [Progressive-Singles-SF-Bay-Area] What do you
>  > think about paid sponsorship for our group???
>  > Date: Sat, 3 Jul 2010 16:41:16 -0400
>  >
>  > Hi Everyone,
>  > We could get sponsorship - $50/month to use as we wish for the MeetUp.
> The
>  > catch is that it's from GE - some program that is apparently is trying to
>  > cast GE as green, it's called "GE: ecomagination." ! Before we dismiss
> this
>  > outright, though, maybe there is a way we can make it work for us. The
> only
>  > thing that's really required is that they get to post something on the
> page.
>  > We could always post something else that is a disclaimer. Any thoughts? I
>  > cut and pasted the info below. I ignored this offer at first, so it may
> be
>  > about to expire, so let me know soon if you have thoughts on it.
>  > Sumi
>  >
>  > Your GE: ecomagination sponsorship offerCampaign Details
>  >
>  >
>  > This sponsorship is meant to support your Meetup to help make it better!
>  > Here are some of the benefits of participating:
>  >
>  > 4 $50 monthly sponsorship payments to support your Meetup however you
> wish.
>  > Payments will be made at the end of each sponsored month.
>  > Custom name tags mailed to you. Request yours here: http://bit.ly/dp3F0V
>  > Informative content on environmental issues to use at your Meetups
>  > Other possible benefits may be: invites to special events, promotion of
>  > sponsored groups, and more
>  > Sponsorship will run until October 29th, 2010
>  >
>  > To participate, here's what you need to do:
>  >
>  >
>  > ACCEPT the offer below
>  > Allow Meetup HQ to display the GE:ecomagination logo on your Group Pages
> and
>  > add the GE:ecomagination tag as well
>  > As Organizer, receive a monthly emails about the sponsorship to share
> with
>  > your members
>  > Keep your Meetup active! Have at least 1 Meetup each month.
>  > Mention that your Meetup Group is supported by GE: ecomagination at your
>  > Meetups.
>  >
>  > GE: ecomagination or you can end the sponsorship at any time
>  >
>  > How will you receive payment?
>  >
>  > Your monthly sponsorship payment of $50.00 will be paid at the end of
> each
>  > full month of sponsorship. All payments are made through Amazon Payments.
>  > You'll need to set up Amazon Payments to receive these payments. We'll
> even
>  > help you set one up.
>  >
>  > Set up your Amazon Account
>  >
>  > Learn more about Meetup & Amazon Payments
>  >
>  > Please see the general Sponsorship FAQs for more information!
>  >
>  >
>  >
>  >
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