Michael
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On Jun 16, 2012, at 8:03 PM, Fred Zirdung <[address removed]> wrote:

> This is an odd stance to take, and I can only speculate its because of
> your stated perspective that recruiter = realtor = car salesman.
> 
> I can't speak for all recruiters, only my own experience. During my
> last job search, I was connected with 12 really great companies, most
> of which met my criteria within an 80% range. The recruiter was also
> able to suggest opportunities that were not withing my spec, and more
> often than not, I was pleasantly surprised by the job/company, even
> though I would not have considered it just by looking at the website.
> Additionally, the recruiter gave me an inside look into culture,
> founders, etc - insights and information that wasn't available on
> crunchbase or other places. Even if some of the info was available, it
> was nicely summarized by the recruiter - I didn't need to spend hours
> researching a company.
> 
> You also need to consider the recruitment process from the employer's
> perspective too. Small companies don't have a lot of cycles to weed
> through resumes and candidates. They hire recruiters to do this and
> send them candidates that are qualified AND excited to work there. For
> this reason they don't post their jobs publicly, nor do the recruiters
> post their names publicly. And as a side effect of this, there is no
> way I would have known/found out about some of the positions I
> interviewed for.
> 
> Yes, there are "those" recruiters who don't care where they place you,
> but that's not been my experience. And that type is easy to spot; you
> get a sense of it on the first call. The good ones are there to build
> long-term relationships with the companies they represent, so it's in
> their interest to know the candidates well and only send them to
> interviews that are appropriate.
> 
> -Fred
> 
> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Roman Kofman <[address removed]> wrote:
>> I take a fairly hard stance on this, and refuse to contact any recruiter
>> that isn't upfront with information. I see it as a matter of the power
>> dynamic during that "quick call". By making a potential recruit call in an
>> informational void, you get to drive the conversation. Moreover, by calling,
>> we communicate intent. It's easier to take that implicit intent and use
>> social pressures to turn it into real intent -- even where it wasn't really
>> that strong in the first place!
>> 
>> It's very much like not knowing the price of a piece of furniture / car /
>> house, and being forced to call a salesperson to find it out. It's
>> immediately a high-pressure situation, and the salesperson will make sure to
>> find out all the reasons you're unhappy in your current car before revealing
>> that this new car will solve all your problems, and its price is affordable
>> in just 36 easy payments...
>> 
>> Same thing here: if a recruiter keeps the company's name from me, I feel
>> like I'm being manipulated from the very start of the relationship. At that
>> point, the value-add from the recruiter is simply not worth it unless I am
>> desperate for a job (at which point, the name of the company doesn't really
>> matter).
>> 
>> --
>> Roman.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Raj Irukulla <[address removed]> wrote:
>>> 
>>> You're overlooking a key part of the value proposition:  recruiters help
>>> sell you to prospective employers.  For folks who don't have a lot of
>>> real-world experience, or might not be presenting themselves in the best
>>> light, this could be very helpful.
>>> 
>>> It's somewhat puzzling to see people's reactions to not knowing the
>>> company name up front.  You can usually find this out with a quick call.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 3:41 AM, Mehul Kar <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks for all the responses everyone.
>>>> 
>>>> I have a hard time believing that a recruiter could paint a better
>>>> picture of a company and it's culture than I could get by looking up the
>>>> founders on LinkedIn/Twitter (for small companies) and walking by or into
>>>> the facilities for bigger ones.
>>>> I also have a hard time believing that I could accurately explain "what I
>>>> was looking for" to a recruiter. This second one may only be true for me
>>>> though as I am new to the industry. I wasn't looking for tangible things a
>>>> few weeks ago, or even if I was, I was totally wrong about what I wanted.
>>>> But walking into some places felt good and some places felt not so good. A
>>>> recruiter couldn't possibly translate that.
>>>> 
>>>> This is all for the sale of discussion of course. I met with a recruiting
>>>> company last month for an hour or so an they were all very nice. Did not get
>>>> a job through them. If they offered exclusive access to companies, that
>>>> would make their value proposition much higher for me.
>>>> 
>>>> *ramble over.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> Mehul Kar
>>>> www.mehulkar.com
>>>> 
>>>> ---
>>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>> 
>>>> On Jun 16, 2012, at 2:16 AM, Michael Chong <[address removed]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Samer, well put!
>>>> 
>>>> :)  And Vlad, I don't mean to counter your point each turn, but not many
>>>> engineers/people_in_­general understand the truth behind the hiring
>>>> economics.
>>>> 
>>>> Large or small, the cost of recruiting is never taken into account when
>>>> negotiating a candidate offer.  Once the employer makes an offer, then that
>>>> means they seriously are committed and want the candidate...BUT at an
>>>> acceptable level of salary.  When running a company and managing employees,
>>>> there are many factors to consider, especially organizationally acceptable
>>>> level of salary for the appropriate level of experience/skills.  In fact,
>>>> the salary discrepancy between software engineers in an organization is
>>>> extremely sensitive more so at a small company than large.
>>>> 
>>>> At a large company, they have a greater range bracket within a job class
>>>> and overlaps the next level.  They can afford it.
>>>> i.e.  Job Class 2 - S/W Engineer $65K ~ $100K
>>>> Job Class 3 - Senior S/W Engineer $90K ~ $120K
>>>> Job Class 4 - Principal S/W Engineer $110K ~ $140K.
>>>> 
>>>> This is intentional at large companies for various reasons, especially at
>>>> Oracle, VMWare, etc.  Caliber of school, type of degree, value of most
>>>> recent experience, etc.  It gives them the flexibility to go after hot
>>>> candidates but not give them a more Senior title. Or promote someone without
>>>> giving them much of a raise, if any, to incentivize the much needed
>>>> "resource/workhorse"­ to stay.  How many times have that happen to us?
>>>> 
>>>> For reals...    The fee for external recruiters has already been
>>>> calculated and accepted when the agency contract was signed.  The budget has
>>>> already been approved for it when they signed.  Employers are committed to
>>>> the agreement and will ALWAYS consider the agency recruiters' candidates
>>>> with as much seriousness as or more than an employee referral.  Otherwise,
>>>> they would not have signed the agreement at all.  Small or Large, companies
>>>> don't care about whether the recruiter makes $2K more or less.  It's all
>>>> about getting the right candidate.
>>>> 
>>>> I hope you'll understand that NO employers will EVER, I mean they will
>>>> NEVER EVER...did I say NEVER?...think to give the candidate an increase in
>>>> salary with the amount saved from no agency placement fee.  The new hire's
>>>> salary is COMPLETELY separate from the agency cost or any other cost of
>>>> hiring.  They have a salary range in mind and they will stick to it for the
>>>> sake of the organization, small or large.
>>>> 
>>>> I'm very glad and appreciative of you sharing your presumptions so that
>>>> we can clear up any misunderstandings about agency recruiters (the good
>>>> ones).  The next series should perhaps be around the challenges of in-house
>>>> recruiters.  If there are in-house recruiters, why would they enlist agency
>>>> recruiters?  Makes you wonder, right?
>>>> 
>>>> More than my 2 cents...more like 2 bucks ;)
>>>> 
>>>> Michael
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Sat, Jun 16, 2012 at 1:55 AM, Samer Masry <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ It's a relationship between the recruiter and the developer.  As a dev
>>>>>­ you want to know that the recruiter understands what your interests are.  As
>>>>>­ an employer you want devs who are interested in what your developing.
>>>>>­  Recruiters are the only ones who take the time to find out more about what
>>>>>­ your looking for besides the job description or the site.  At One Kings Lane
>>>>>­ our site is tailored for a certain customer group so devs have a hard time
>>>>>­ discovering how much tech we have by our site alone.
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ -s
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ On Jun 15, 2012, at 11:32 PM, Vladimir Gurovich
>>>>>­ <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ Ditto on Crunchbase as well as HackerNews.
>>>>>­ 
>>>>>­ On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 11:16 PM, Azat Mardanov
>>>>>­ <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­> 
>>>>>­> Vladimir, good catch! This make so much sense for the added value of
>>>>>­> recruiters: "job description was a copy paste from" :)
>>>>>­> 
>>>>>­> Personally, I prefer to know the company name upfront. It's website,
>>>>>­> CrunchBase profile and founders tell a lot of information before even
>>>>>­> considering the position.
>>>>>­> 
>>>>>­> --
>>>>>­> Azat,
>>>>>­> https://azat.co­
>>>>>­> 
>>>>>­> 
>>>>>­> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 9:05 PM, Vladimir Gurovich
>>>>>­> <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­>> 
>>>>>­>> It seems a catch 22 type of situation: On one hand, recruiter may help
>>>>>­>> you with negotiation. On another, a recruiter is getting a cut of what you
>>>>>­>> might be getting, so the advantage of recruiter negotiating for you may
>>>>>­>> cancel itself out.
>>>>>­>> I see your point about extra info that a recruiter may be able to
>>>>>­>> provide, in this case the job description was a copy paste from company's
>>>>>­>> site which allowed me to google the company in an instant though :)
>>>>>­>> 
>>>>>­>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 4:12 PM, cody voellinger
>>>>>­>> <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> That’s true Erik, but from a Recruiter’s perspective, that’s not my
>>>>>­>>> main concern with displaying the company name.  A recruiter can help a
>>>>>­>>> candidate who is applying in many ways- company insight, interview prep,
>>>>>­>>> salary negotiations, and getting their resume heard above the rest.  So I
>>>>>­>>> feel most candidates would prefer to work with a recruiter, assuming the
>>>>>­>>> recruiter is a good one.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> The reason I am often reluctant to give out a client name initially,
>>>>>­>>> is because the natural response is to jump to the company’s website and make
>>>>>­>>> a quick decision whether it is interesting or not.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Often times, these decisions are not completely informed.  There is a
>>>>>­>>> lot of info I want to provide about the team size, culture, current projects
>>>>>­>>> and future direction of the company that should weigh into making that an
>>>>>­>>> interesting place to work.  But that info would get ignored as soon as a
>>>>>­>>> hyperlink is provided…
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> My $.02, have a good weekend all!
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> From: [address removed] [mailto:[address removed]] On Behalf
>>>>>­>>> Of Erik Petersen
>>>>>­>>> Sent: Friday, June 15,[masked]:01 PM
>>>>>­>>> To: [address removed]
>>>>>­>>> Subject: Re: [sfror] Looking for 2 Lead ROR Developers in SF!
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Recruiters don't want you to apply directly because then they don't
>>>>>­>>> get a commission.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 3:35 PM, Mehul Kar <[address removed]>
>>>>>­>>> wrote:
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> I'm relatively new to this list and to programming, but isn't it
>>>>>­>>> important for developers (or anyone) to know from job postings what
>>>>>­>>> company/product they're applying for? I guess I don't understand how
>>>>>­>>> recruiters work.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> ------
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Mehul Kar
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Cell:[masked]
>>>>>­>>> www.mehulkar.com
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> On Fri, Jun 15, 2012 at 2:41 PM, Nicole Blincoe <[address removed]>
>>>>>­>>> wrote:
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Looking for Jr. and Lead ROR Developers!
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Contract to hire or Direct Hire:)
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> What you’ll do…
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Operate as a member of the agile development team.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Pair program with other top notch rails engineers, developing
>>>>>­>>> across the full stack of functionality from database to front end.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Build full stack automation tests to ensure that the shipped
>>>>>­>>> product is as solid and reliable.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Work on chef recipes to deploy production system changes, in a
>>>>>­>>> paired environment.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Resolve production defects and respond to direct customer needs.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> Skills we’d like to see…
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Real world experience with Ruby on Rails in a production
>>>>>­>>> environment.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Experience working and deploy on Linux systems.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Familiarity with cloud based deployments.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Browser automation experience, with Selenium or other related
>>>>>­>>> technologies.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Database experience, preferably with PostgreSQL or a similar
>>>>>­>>> system.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • Chef experience, or other system automation technology a plus.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> What’s in it for you…
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • To become part of a team that is new, energized and going
>>>>>­>>> places…fast.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • You’ll be working in the Financial District with close proximity to
>>>>>­>>> transportation, places to dine, glasses of wine and stands for shoe shines.
>>>>>­>>> 
>>>>>­>>> • And, the best part – Happy Hou
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
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>>>> 
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> FoodPair, Inc.
>>> https://www.foodpa...­
>>> https://www.facebo...­
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
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>>> This message was sent by Raj Irukulla ([address removed]) from San
>>> Francisco Ruby on Rails Group.
>>> To learn more about Raj Irukulla, visit his/her member profile
>>> 
>>> Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email |
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>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on
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>> This message was sent by Roman Kofman ([address removed]) from San Francisco
>> Ruby on Rails Group.
>> To learn more about Roman Kofman, visit his/her member profile
>> 
>> Set my mailing list to email me As they are sent | In one daily email |
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>> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] |
>> [address removed]
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> This message was sent by Fred Zirdung ([address removed]) from San Francisco Ruby on Rails Group.
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> Set my mailing list to email me
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