Seattle Analytic Philosophy Club Message Board › Is it time for a society governed by Analytical Philosophers?

Is it time for a society governed by Analytical Philosophers?

George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 112

Let me qualify this statement. Plato's goal was to create an overall happy society. As long as everyone was happy then there would be little cause for class warfare. But happiness was not the same for all classes. For the iron classes (the least cognitive) - presumably there vices were the most primitive. The silver - capitalist class - was money and some luxury. The gold class are perhaps equivalent to the scientists and scholars. Each class is conditioned into it's own reality and expectations - as we are conditioned into our reality of consumerism.
This is not supported by facts. All the totalitarian regimes have produced more misery than anything else. But you can always say they didn't follow Plato prescription word by word.

I don't know how much time you spent subsisting in academia (other than as a student), but there are indeed communities of people who live for research and mental exploration. There are communities of monks and devote theologians found across the world. They are already here and waiting for their chance to rule
If only you know what administrative work entails! It entails relentless interruption. Philosophers who enjoy the pleasure of contemplation hate that. I don't know how many of those people you mentioned really want to rule.

Friendship between Medici and Leonardo da Vinci is probably the most productive in human history. One, the capitalist, has power; the other, the polymath, has intellect. Their relationship is the exact reverse of the one you think Plato prescribed.



Its all about the dogma you care to inflict on the population and whether that reality for your civilization is stable and can stand the test of time. Plato says our current open society is destined for the trash heap as soon as the underclass dominates -either through reproduction or scarcity. Scarcity and/or stupidity leads to tyranny.
This is not supported by facts. All the proletarian revolutions that took place in the last century were led by people from the upper class. Lenin was from a minor nobility. Mao was from rural gentry; his mother was a direct descendant of a famous scholar-general of the Song Dynasty. Ho Chi minh's father was a scholar and a teacher. Castro had Doctor of law degree.

I would say, almost as a rule, it was always elements from the top that, probably for personal ambitions, started revolution in the name of liberating the oppressed.
George C.
GeorgeCarter
Seattle, WA
Post #: 12
I have to ask what our goal is here: to explore possibilities for a new society or simply to reject new concepts because we live in the best of all possible worlds.

If the latter is your objective, I only ask what happens in 100 years when a billion people reside in the USA and there is no more legitimate means to rack up another 10 or 20 or 30 trillion dollars of public debt to keep the underclass fed and nicely dependent; and another 13 or 15 billion people world-wide.

This is not supported by facts. All the totalitarian regimes have produced more misery than anything else. But you can always say they didn't follow Plato prescription word by word.
I am a scientist and engineer by training, so excuse my ignorance on some subjects related to analytical philosophy and politics. Now, I agree we need facts - and definitions. Totalitarian = government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state. Plato's ideal society is complex, since each caste has different privileges - and it is the golden caste which has the greatest political freedoms because it has the virtuousness and reason to make decisions on governance. For other,lesser castes, it would not doubt be totalitarianism. But to simply label Plato's society as stew is not accurate- it's more like a lasagna.

And besides when did political systems affect the mood or emotion of it's Citizens. According to a 2013 UN study, wealth, health were deemed most important factors and general freedoms were considered of lesser importance. Considering the relatively low happiness in the USA, and the low approval rating of Congress, I think the form of government has little to do with happiness for the average person. It is evident from the UN report that prosperity and monetary freedom make humanity happy - again for the average human. Totalitarian, democracy, socialism - who really cares as long as one can reproduce, fill their 3 car garage with toys, and live out the American dream?


Its all about the dogma you care to inflict on the population and whether that reality for your civilization is stable and can stand the test of time. Plato says our current open society is destined for the trash heap as soon as the underclass dominates -either through reproduction or scarcity. Scarcity and/or stupidity leads to tyranny.
You say, "This is not supported by facts". Let me just remind you of some facts. The global depression of the 30's produced Hitler and a host of like tyrants- and nearly brought the USA to it's knees in a boil of radicalism and communism. The same kind impoverishment under the mismanagement of the Csar gave rise to Lenin and Soviet communism. Contrarily, the current prosperity in Russia and in China have sent communism in full retreat as the middle class and elite enjoy their new-found economic freedoms.

Isn't it obvious that the wealth of a nation (and hence income) and the educational level (and hence potential to earn income) affect political systems? Open societies are at the mercy of economic conditions for political stability.

How Plato's Ideal Society would weather an economic storm is untested. But instead of open warfare between the classes over diminished resources and the rise of the tyrant class (as happens in an open society), the classes would be managed as to maintain overall homeostasis. At least that is a reasonable interpretation of the Republic.

George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 113
I'm practicing critical thinking here. I advocate a world wide federation with each state going their own ways. You can hope that some states may use The Republic as a blueprint. I acknowledge that the Republic is very influential. That is why I think it is worth my time to critisize it.

The global depression of the 30's produced Hitler and a host of like tyrants- and nearly brought the USA to it's knees in a boil of radicalism and communism.
Facts: The global depression of the 30's was produced by the treaty of Versailles. The treaty of Versailles was caused by WWI. WWI, in Bertrand Russell's view, was bound to happen as traffic accidents were bound to happen when there were no traffic rules.

In other words, without WWI, there would have been no Nazism, no Communism revolution and no WWII.

Contrarily, the current prosperity in Russia and in China have sent communism in full retreat as the middle class and elite enjoy their new-found economic freedoms.
The economic success in Russia and China is due to the fact that their governments realizes that it is wise for the government to step aside. In the areas where the government is needed, namely, Conservation, Security and Justice, neither governments scores high.

Speaking of the Royal Lie, here goes a Bertrand Russell quote: "What Plato does not seem to realize is that the compulsory acceptance of such myths is incompatible with philosophy, and involves a kind of education which stunts intelligence."

I don't quite understand what Russell says, but the facts support what he says, as are shown by the lack of innovation in the former communist block. Russell did mention that, when he was in Russia, he met some world renowned Mathematicians who told him that they were ordered to teach Euclidean geometry from a "Marxist point of view."

How Plato's Ideal Society would weather an economic storm is untested. But instead of open warfare between the classes over diminished resources and the rise of the tyrant class (as happens in an open society), the classes would be managed as to maintain overall homeostasis. At least that is a reasonable interpretation of the Republic.
I'm experiencing a different kind of poverty here, that is, the lack of intellectual achievement.
George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 119
I agree that one's sphere of influence should be proportional to her or his abilities. The ancient Greeks, above anything else, believed in proportions. It is desirable for the society to be governed by wise persons. This leads to our next question: Exactly what is wisdom?

I have to point out that many scientists, doctors and engineers are as deft in their specific fields as they are clumsy in politics. It doesn't take a college degree to be a master of this medieval art. As a matter of fact, the civilizing effects of college education tend to dumb down people in the realm of politics, which makes intellectuals even more vulnerable to underhandedness.

Politicking may not require a college degree but nevertheless is an intellectual activity, because it requires raw intelligence. It is naive and and dangerous to lower estimate people with little or no college education.
George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 120
Historically speaking, it is always the philosophers who flee, not the primitive reactionaries.
George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 122
By civilizing effects of education, I don't mean moral preachings. Good education cultivates lofty ambitions and expansive feelings. It is these effects that raise a person above triffling intrigues.

"Envy cannot be cured by preaching; preaching, at the best, will only alter its manifestations and lead it to adopt more subtle forms of concealment. " --Bertrand Russell
George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 124
To those who accuse me of elitism, I want to point out a fact: It is the intellectuals who have been persecuted ever since recorded time.
George
user 74564852
Raleigh, NC
Post #: 136
Do you know what philosophers are good for? Investors. A philosopher investor would be a philosopher king without the totalitarian part, because you can only inaugurate initiatives and you are powerless to frustrate anyone.

Powered by mvnForum

Our Sponsors

  • DesignYum.com

    Our group is being sponsored by this outstanding design blog.

  • Chreia Press

    If the truth be told, few would listen.

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy