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Re: [Seattle-Anarcho-Capitalism] Re: [Seattle Voluntarists] Fwd: A message from Sarina Forbes, a member of The Seattle Austrian Economics Meetup Group

From: David R.
Sent on: Saturday, September 24, 2011 12:54 AM
The meeting where the AnCap debate was announced was my first time out
actually. Kept meaning to make it, but you know how it goes. My wife and
I both went, and we were a little shocked at the # of truthers. The main
presenter was (sorry, don't remember his name? Casey? Case?) presenting
video and movies from a skeptical POV regarding 9/11, meaning, they
would examine a theory (such as "controlled demolition") and see if the
evidence supported it (his evidence indicated against). As part of the
presentation, he tried to introduce the idea of fallacies, skepticism,
and the research he had done. He got a lot of silly questions. It made
me rather despair for the Seattle C4L group.

There did seem to be a number of Paul supporters and some that wanted to
get involved as PCOs etc. and work within the system to improve it.
(Whatever one thinks of that, it's at least putting shoe leather behind
one's beliefs, and attempting to advance and not harm liberty.)

Didn't notice any obvious immigrant bashers or supremacists.

You're probably right, there may be some ideas-as-property fans there. I
guess my point was perhaps that "propertarian anarchist" isn't the
easiest term to understand for those unfamiliar. "Libertarian anarchist"
might have been clearer?

A debate would be fun. They certainly spend time on things a lot less
useful and interesting. Some philosophical rigor would be useful. I
would suggest, though, get the format clarified - number of speakers,
time limits, and such - or you're going to get a lot of long rambling
rants being entertained and sucking up time.


On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 09:57:56PM -0400, Matt wrote:
>    I see two reasons for CFL to not want to have a debate:
> 
>    1. They would rather ignore their inconsistencies than confront them.
>    2. They are now doing to us what the Republicans and pundits do to Ron
>    Paul: "Oh, those people aren't serious!" "You can't listen to them,
>    they're extremists!" "They don't matter!"
> 
>    I haven't gone to a CFL meeting since the kickoff in my old congressional
>    district in Cincinnati. Are most of the people involved dedicated
>    Austro-libertarian Ron Paul folks or disenchanted refugees from the two
>    parties? It is this second group that concerns me--they tend to be the
>    truthers, immigrant bashers, and white supremacists who would be more at
>    home in the John Birch Society.
> 
>    On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Brent Hinckley
>    <[address removed]> wrote:
> 
>      Its easier to follow (such is the social human animal) than to work
>      one's own way through fundamental relationships of reality through a
>      strictly consistent axiom of property rights of scarce goods.
> 
>      Now when one says "already sold on property rights", I'm wondering
>      what their definition of property is? Some support initiation of
>      aggression over fraudulent claims on ideas as property. I suppose the
>      word "rights" is also one of those loaded words where a discussion
>      regarding it with a varying definition between the parties can result
>      in no effective communication.
> 
>      I too would be very interested in some kind of debate.
> 
>      -brent
>      On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:50 AM, Cliff <[address removed]> wrote:
>      >> I was at the C4L meeting in question, and I talked with the organizer
>      >> afterward to explain that yes, we're serious people and would like to
>      >> have a debate.
>      >
>      > The economic and philosophical foundation of C4L, unless I am wrong,
>      are in
>      > the roots of what we fundamentally believe. We just take those roots
>      to
>      > their logical conclusion and do not deviate. In other words we
>      maintain the
>      > integrity of our arguments. Its sad they take us as a joke. Its a
>      reflection
>      > of how little of their own political philosophy they understand. Sadly
>      its
>      > clear that C4L has just become another blind ideology. Not necessarily
>      aware
>      > of what its fundamental principles are about.
>      > -Cliff
>      > On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 9:47 AM, Cliff Rosson <[address removed]>
>      > wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>> C4L is already sold on property rights and might have been
>      confusing.
>      >>
>      >> Except for when they are not. It would be interesting to show them
>      how
>      >> they are not consistent in their beliefs and in fact do not believe
>      in
>      >> property rights when taken to their logical end.
>      >> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 12:15 AM, David Robins
>      <[address removed]>
>      >> wrote:
>      >>>
>      >>> I was at the C4L meeting in question, and I talked with the
>      organizer
>      >>> afterward to explain that yes, we're serious people and would like
>      to
>      >>> have a debate. Also, the description read was a little strange:
>      >>> "propertarian anarchists" - accurate, sure, but the C4L is already
>      sold
>      >>> on property rights and might have been confusing.
>      >>>
>      >>> On Fri, Sep 23, 2011 at 03:10:41AM -0400, Matt wrote:
>      >>> >    Not sure if anyone saw it, but this very topic got mentioned in
>      The
>      >>> >    Stranger's anti-Ron Paul hit piece this week:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >      and then someone announces that a local anarchist group
>      wanted to
>      >>> > engage
>      >>> >      the C4L in a debate, which elicits derisive laughter from the
>      >>> > assembly.
>      >>> >      "We don't have time for this," someone sneers.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >    No matter how you feel about Ron Paul, it's a crap article
>      written
>      >>> > by a
>      >>> >    very left-wing person who is deeply embarrassed that Ron Paul
>      is to
>      >>> > the
>      >>> >    non-violent, non-interventionist left of his Nobel
>      >>> >    laureate/warmonger-i­n-chief.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >    On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:13 AM, Aden <[address removed]>
>      wrote:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >      I am in agreement with Paul. I wouldn't mind
>      >>> > listening/participat­ing in
>      >>> >      such a discussion, but I don't think the C4L group would be
>      open
>      >>> > to the
>      >>> >      voluntayist/ancap perspective.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >      On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 10:42 PM, Paul Edwards
>      <[address removed]>
>      >>> >      wrote:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >        I would be up for such a discussion. Either to discuss or
>      to
>      >>> > listen.
>      >>> >        But i don't think C4L would be, for some reason.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >        On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Cliff Rosson
>      >>> > <[address removed]>
>      >>> >        wrote:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          C4L has been holding these debates. I wonder if they
>      would be
>      >>> > up for
>      >>> >          an anarchist vs minarchist debate? What do you guys
>      think?
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>      >>> >          From: Sarina Forbes <[address removed]>
>      >>> >          Date: Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 7:33 PM
>      >>> >          Subject: A message from Sarina Forbes, a member of The
>      Seattle
>      >>> >          Austrian Economics Meetup Group
>      >>> >          To: [address removed]
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          The following message was sent to you by a member of The
>      >>> >          Seattle Austrian Economics Meetup Group.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          * It was sent to you by: Sarina Forbes (User ID: user
>     [masked])
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          * Sarina Forbes requested a response. To respond simply
>      reply
>      >>> >          to this email. (Note that when you reply, Sarina Forbes
>      will
>      >>> >          have your email address.)
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          What Sarina Forbes wrote:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >  --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­----
>      >>> >          Hi,
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          About a month ago I think I requested you share some
>      >>> >          information with your various political action groups.
>       On
>      >>> >          August 8th Seattle Campaign for Liberty did indeed host
>      Gery
>      >>> >          Warner, Professional Engineer, CEO of Tentnology, and
>      >>> > volunteer
>      >>> >          presenter for AE911 Truth, who gave a presentation on *
>      >>> >          explosive* evidence surrounding the events at the World
>      Trade
>      >>> >          Center on 9/11.  There was quite a bit of healthy debate
>      >>> > during
>      >>> >          and afterwards.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          To promote balance and another point of view we offer
>      another
>      >>> >          look promised to be a riveting talk using many of the
>      same
>      >>> >          materials used by so-called Truthers, said to break down
>      the
>      >>> >          numerous logical fallacies, cherry-picked data, and
>      falsehoods
>      >>> >          used to promulgate "9/11 is an Inside Job" propaganda and
>      >>> >          exposing the "bad" science used to keep this myth afloat.
>      We
>      >>> >          will limit the questions to after the talk is completed.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          September 11 will be the 10th anniversary of a life
>      changing
>      >>> >          event.  We will kick off the meeting by asking "Where
>      were you
>      >>> >          on 9/11 and what has been the greatest impact on your
>      >>> > liberty?"
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          I was in Manhattan going to school and as I am a nurse I
>      >>> > worked
>      >>> >          in the ER of a hospital that day.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          Please share or post this information on your meetup site
>      or
>      >>> >          within your circle about what will surely be a boisterous
>      >>> >          invigorating presentation scheduled for next Monday night
>      >>> >          September 12th by the Seattle Campaign for Liberty at
>      >>> > Piecora's
>      >>> >          on Madison in Capitol Hill.  See
>      >>> >          http://www.meetup...­
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          SPECIAL GUEST: Paul Case leader of the Seattle Skeptics,
>      who
>      >>> >          will speak on The Case Against Controlled Demolitions-
>      Why
>      >>> > 9/11
>      >>> >          "Truth" doesn't hold up.  Paul was President of Seattle
>      >>> >          Atheists from[masked], during his tenure they won the
>      >>> >          American Atheist afflicate of the Year award and did
>      things
>      >>> >          such as a bus ad campaign that got a fair amount of local
>      >>> >          press.  He has been featured in Seattle Monthly magazine,
>      and
>      >>> >          interviewed by several media outlets. He is a monthly
>      host on
>      >>> >          the weekly radio show Ask an Atheist, where he covers
>      science,
>      >>> >          and topics of interest to skeptics.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          Our mission at Seattle Campaign for Liberty is to promote
>      and
>      >>> >          defend the great American principles of individual
>      liberty,
>      >>> >          constitutional government, sound money, free markets, and
>      a
>      >>> > non-
>      >>> >          interventionist foreign policy, by means of educational
>      and
>      >>> >          political activity.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          At the C4L meetup we make every effort to post and/or
>      share
>      >>> >          information about opportunities and events in the
>      >>> >          patriot/freedom/poli­tical activism movement.  Please
>      promote
>      >>> >          this event as well.
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          Thank you,
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          Sarina Forbes
>      >>> >          Co-organizer Seattle C4L and King County Ron Paul 2012
>      >>> >          (also PCO SEA-3345)
>      >>> >
>      >>> >  --------------------­--------------------­--------------------­----
>      >>> >
>      >>> >          * If you'd like to see the Meetup profile for Sarina
>      Forbes,
>      >>> >          visit:
>      >>> >
>      >>> >
>       http://www.meetup...­
>      >>> >
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