Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Progress

From: James T.
Sent on: Friday, July 17, 2009 11:01 AM
I constructed this matrix to illustrate some examples of 'progress'
 
 
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: jetroy
Sent: Wednesday, June 24,[masked]:31 PM
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting

Brenda
 
But you said that my propaganda example is itself propaganda and now you are refusing to say why. Which makes it hard to have a discussion.
 
Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: Brenda
Sent: Wednesday, June 24,[masked]:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting

You assume erroneously, Jim.  I was simply talking about the definition of a word in the abstract.  I find it best to agree upon definitions before discussing an issue.  It is hard to have a productive discussion otherwise.

I am sure your example and understanding of propaganda can be discussed on Monday night.

Thanks,
Brenda

--- On Wed, 6/24/09, jetroy <jetroy2@comcast..net> wrote:

From: jetroy <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting
To: [address removed]
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 10:33 PM

Brenda
 
I assume that you think that the number of 1 million Iraqi deaths is way out of line?  What would be your best guess?
 
Jim
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Brenda
Sent: Wednesday, June 24,[masked]:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting

Thanks for the link, Jetroy.  A very thorough encyclopedic breakdown of  the term.  However, I still beg to differ. 
Censorship may be an element of propaganda, but it in itself is not propaganda. 
And here we have an interesting meta-debate going on!  Is your argument for broadening the definition a form of propaganda, or is my argument for narrowing the definition a form of propaganda?  I will still stick to my definition, while certainly respecting and appreciating yours!

Much respect,
Brenda



--- On Wed, 6/24/09, jetroy <[address removed]> wrote:

From: jetroy <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting
To: [address removed]
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 9:18 PM

Brenda
 
I prefer a broader definition of propaganda such as the following:
 
Propagandists use a variety of propaganda techniques to influence opinions and to avoid the truth. Often these techniques rely on some element of censorship or manipulation, either omitting significant information or distorting it.
 
 
In other words, anything that serves to shut down debate on an issue can be considered propaganda.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Brenda
Sent: Wednesday, June 24,[masked]:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting

Forgive me, Jetroy, but I think that an absence of information is not propaganda.  Propaganda is a form of information control, but not all information control is propaganda.  The word 'propaganda' comes from the root propagate, meaning to spread, to issue forth.  An absense of something is the opposite of an issuing forth of something.  I believe you are talking about information control in your example of the lack of correct numbers of casualties being reported. 

With respect,
Brenda

--- On Wed, 6/24/09, jetroy <[address removed]> wrote:

From: jetroy <[address removed]>
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting
To: [address removed]
Date: Wednesday, June 24, 2009, 7:06 PM

The particular example of propaganda that I selected is an absense of information in the MSM on the number of Iraqis killed because of our invasion.  There is a lot of evidence that there have been 1 million  deaths more than would have occurred under Saddam's rule.  The evidence is statistical because many of the death records are missing.  I believe that the little informaton that is available from the MSM on this issue is misleading, designed to make the issue go away, ie, it's propaganda.   It's hard to do a show and tell about it when you can't find even one example.  Here are several secondary internet sources on the issue.
 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Over one million Iraqis have met violent deaths as a result of the 2003 invasion, according to a study conducted by the prestigious British polling group, Opinion Research Business (ORB).. These numbers suggest that the invasion and occupation of Iraq rivals the mass killings of the last century?the human toll exceeds the 800,000 to 900,000 believed killed in the Rwandan genocide in 1994, and is approaching the number (1.7 million) who died in Cambodia?s infamous ?Killing Fields? during the Khmer Rouge era of the 1970s."
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"The overall figures are stunning: 4.5 million displaced, 1-2 million widows, 5 million orphans, about 1 million dead--in one way or another, affecting nearly one in two Iraqis."
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"Dr. Les Roberts risked his life a few years ago to get some numbers that some people fiercely attack as inaccurate or misleading and that many, many more probably pay little or no attention to."
 
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
 

Is the AP even going to try to count the Iraqi dead?
 
 
--------------------------------------------------------------------
 
"Over one million people have died in Iraq since Bush's invasion in 2003 and most of that figure counts women and children. "
- Cindy Sheehan
 
 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
BTW, Al Jazeera TV, while not available from cable, can be shown on your computer via livestation.com.  I consider it freeer from propaganda than the MSM.
 
 
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff
Sent: Wednesday, May 27,[masked]:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Socrates-Cafe-Louisville] Great First Meeting

A topic in advance...  Has anyone got some suggestions?  The philosophical standbys are things like, "what is love", "are we free or determined", and "what is art".  Other questions we might consider may be "how do we know right from wrong" or "does technology have a price that we may not realize".
 
Here's how we'll decide:  reply back with a suggestion by Saturday afternoon.  If there isn't a clear winner, then Mikel will choose the topic.
 
Lemme know what you think. 

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 8:01 PM, Mikel <[address removed]> wrote:
I had a good time.
 
I think it would be a good idea to post a general topic area in advance--I've been thinking a bit over some of the discussion and came up with some things I'd like to have said but didn't think of on the spot.

On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Jeff <[address removed]> wrote:
Our first meeting last night was very successful, due completely to people's willingness to offer information, opinions, and insights and to challenge each other. We hit a range of topics under the subject of individual freedom versus social responsibility. We also picked up someone from a nearby table who provided some strong points of view. Thank you all who were able to make it.

This is a weekly meeting, every Monday evening from 7 to 9 at the Java Brewing Company on Frankfort Avenue. Attend as your schedule and desire permits, there are no obligations. Show up alone or bring along some friends.

Based on the first meeting, I think we're a hit.





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