Re: [The-Burnsville-Socrates-Cafe] Harris' Free Will (Cliff Notes by Jon A)

From: user 3.
Sent on: Sunday, July 29, 2012 8:24 AM
I have found a solution to your dilemma, Andrea.

More time … less gravity. 

This link [ http://www.explor...­ ], and your entry, will put you in a mind frame that will, at least for a while, reduce that stress.

I've calculated my Jovian age to be little more than six years old, so I allow myself to act that age here on Earth, when I think about it. Perhaps you will get by, by going to a closer planet.

Try it … you'll like it!, as the saying goes.

Dick
Sent from my iPhone 4S.


On Jul 27, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Andrusela <[address removed]> wrote:

> Thank you, Dick and Luda. And Jim, you make a reasoned argment and
> stress is certainly a factor. For me, the key factor is time. Time and
> Gravity, she is a bitch, as they say. I am such an anxious person that
> I could spend most of my waking hours just managing that stress via
> meditation, distraction, cuddling with my husband (no longer an
> option, sadly), whatever. However, time waits for no man/woman, and
> there is this thing called work that keeps harshing on my buzz. On
> another note, I will be joining the group for the middle two tuesdays
> in August. There is no yoga in August and I took time off from work
> for a couple tuesdays. Hope to see some of you there. I always feel
> better after our discussions and leave with a smile on my face.
> 
> On 7/27/12, Jim <[address removed]> wrote:
>> Fascinating discussion, as always.
>> 
>> Hmmmm let's see...
>> 
>> Check-ins seem to suggest we are run by genes we are born with and
>> circumstances we grow up in and there's little we can do to chart the
>> course of our balloon ride, assuming we initially get off the ground.
>> BF Skinner would approve to a point, but even he would say "but we
>> will hurt you if you make a bad choice based on your fateful path and
>> we will reward you if you make good choices—thus you'll be okay and
>> we won't need to worry about you.. Skinner held sway for some time
>> but it was inevitable that his own balloon would get the needle, as
>> it did with the emergence of cognitive science and neuroscience.
>> 
>> Simplistically, Skinner was saying the moral code society needs to
>> thrive is imposed from without on the individual who is then
>> conditioned to respond appropriately (except for when he doesn't and
>> then we confine him). Cognitive science (shooting from the hip, here)
>> says the moral code is internalized as the individual grows and has
>> increasing self-reflective capacity and longs for
>> "belonging" (Maslow) with a positive social network. The need to
>> belong is a powerful social-cognitive force, so has a strong
>> influence on choice making for individual actions that can further
>> that goal. Some of this is surely subconscious, but much of it too,
>> as we sit and mull what's going well or isn't in the social-affective
>> context, becomes quite if not entirely conscious.
>> 
>> Where problems occur and people go bad is in one's self-perception of
>> ability to hew to the level in most respects of the crowd s/he would
>> like to network with and be accepted by. If a person's self
>> assessment concludes s/he can't hold up his/her end of the
>> conversation with the higher ground crowd, they will gravitate to
>> others with whom they can hold it up.
>> 
>> So we have perceived brain efficacy here as a self-perceived limiting
>> factor. Numerous negative messages from "trusted" adults in a
>> person's youth can really sabotage the unconscious self-perception.
>> This can lead to social-emotional conflict that results in stress
>> that then puts a person in survival mode, bringing down a person's
>> capacity for positive outlook, hopefulness, higher-ground choice
>> making, and persistence along a path to a better life, instead
>> pulling the person down into more primal behavior and a frantic need
>> to survive at that level. When one gets to that point, it's really
>> quite hard for him/her to self-elevate because stress continues to
>> increase driving the executive control center more into submission,
>> thus making the path to a good life nearly impossible. Not to mention
>> the reinforcements one might be receiving from the "survival" group.
>> 
>> In my opinion, the key here is stress and its effect on brain
>> function. The intervention is training in stress awareness,
>> reduction, and self-management of stress, bringing the "stress
>> response into equilibrium with the relaxation response, which is
>> actually relatively easy to do.
>> 
>> Jim Baker
>> 
>> 
>> On Jul 26, 2012, at 5:28 AM, Andrusela wrote:
>> 
>>> I think these are ideas worth entertaining. I especially relate to the
>>> laziness as a neurological condition hypothesis. Some people are just
>>> blessed with a lot of energy in productive ways and I am not. I cannot
>>> seem to budge my capacity for "getting things done" regardless of my
>>> attempts at healthy living and positive thinking, etc. I have a very
>>> active mind but it often spins its wheels, if you get my drift. And I
>>> also see how being born into the wrong family can doom a person, the
>>> way someone was treated and raised and how hard that is to overcome if
>>> it's bad. That doesn't mean that some people at the point that they
>>> are a danger to others will not need to be confined somewhere away
>>> from the rest of us, regardless of how much choice they had in what
>>> they later became. Just my two cents. And you get what you pay for, as
>>> they say. (smiley face)
>>> 
>>> On 7/25/12, Jon Anderson <[address removed]> wrote:
>>>> p.5
>>>> Either our wills are determined by prior causes and we are not
>>>> responsible
>>>> for them, or they are the product of chance and we are not
>>>> responsible for
>>>> them.
>>>> 
>>>> p.7
>>>> The intention to do one thing and not another does not originate in
>>>> consciousness -- rather it appears in consciousness.
>>>> 
>>>> p.11
>>>> You are not controlling the storm, and you are not lost in it. You
>>>> are the
>>>> storm.
>>>> 
>>>> p.15
>>>> The idea of free will emerges from a felt experience.
>>>> 
>>>> p.19
>>>> Am I free to do that which does not occur to me to do? Of course not.
>>>> 
>>>> p.33
>>>> . . . the fact that our choices depend on prior causes does not
>>>> mean that
>>>> they don't matter.
>>>> 
>>>> . . . you are no more responsible for the next thing you think (and
>>>> therefore do) than you are for the fact that you were born into
>>>> this world.
>>>> 
>>>> p.38
>>>> . . . you cannot make your own luck.
>>>> 
>>>> My choices matter -- and there are paths toward making wiser ones
>>>> -- but I
>>>> cannot choose what I choose.
>>>> 
>>>> p.30
>>>> Yes, you are free to do what you want even now. But where did your
>>>> desires
>>>> come from?
>>>> 
>>>> p.45
>>>> Losing a belief in free will has not made me fatalistic -- in fact
>>>> it has
>>>> increased my feelings of freedom. My hopes, fears, and neuroses
>>>> seem less
>>>> personal and indelible. There is no telling how much I might
>>>> change in the
>>>> future.
>>>> 
>>>> p.52
>>>> Once we recognize that even the most terrifying predators are, in
>>>> a very
>>>> real sense, unlucky to be who they are, the logic of hating (as
>>>> opposed to
>>>> fearing) them begins to unravel.
>>>> 
>>>> It seems immoral not to recognize just how luck is involved in
>>>> morality
>>>> itself.
>>>> 
>>>> p.61
>>>> How much credit does a person deserve for not being lazy? None at
>>>> all.
>>>> Laziness, like diligence, is a neurological condition.
>>>> 
>>>> In improving ourselves and society, we are working directly with
>>>> the forces
>>>> of nature, for there is nothing but nature itself to work with.
>>>> 
>>>> p.64
>>>> Am I free to change my mind? Of course not. It can only change me.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Please Note: If you hit "REPLY", your message will be sent to everyone on this mailing list ([address removed])
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> This message was sent by Andrusela ([address removed]) from The Burnsville Socrates Cafe.
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> Set my mailing list to email me
> 
> As they are sent
> http://www.meetup...­
> 
> In one daily email
> http://www.meetup...­
> 
> Don't send me mailing list messages
> http://www.meetup...­
> Meetup, PO Box 4668 #37895 New York, New York[masked] | [address removed]
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