addressalign-toparrow-leftarrow-rightbackbellblockcalendarcameraccwchatcheckchevron-downchevron-leftchevron-rightchevron-small-downchevron-small-leftchevron-small-rightchevron-small-upchevron-upcircle-with-checkcircle-with-crosscircle-with-pluscrossdots-three-verticaleditemptyheartexporteye-with-lineeyefacebookfolderfullheartglobegmailgoogleimageimagesinstagramlinklocation-pinmagnifying-glassmailminusmoremuplabelShape 3 + Rectangle 1outlookpersonplusprice-ribbonImported LayersImported LayersImported Layersshieldstartickettrashtriangle-downtriangle-uptwitteruseryahoo

The Birth of Tragedy [end]

The last 10 chapters of Birth of Tragedy continue with the Greek framework to understand the decline and possible rebirth of modernity.    In particular, Nietzsche explores the death of tragedy at the hands of theoretical optimism and its limits as it relates to the artist's metaphysics.

"[T]hat thought, guided by the thread of causation, might plumb the farthest depths of being and even correct it.. this grand metaphysical illusion has become integral to the scientific endeavor and again and again leads science to those far limits of its inquiry where it becomes art...'"

 

 

Join or login to comment.

  • Brian

    "The limits of knowledge calls up tragic knowledge, which needs art to be endured"
    - This calls to mind Socratic paradox. Logical argument (e.g., w/ Protagoras) comes to a point where both participants fall (against their will) into the other participant's position. Doesn't this have the form of tragedy (a la Aristotle's Poetics)? Nietzsche is realizing that most people will not see the deeper insight that propels them to further thoughtfulness. Instead they get merely puzzled. Nietzsche suggests that those who are so propelled do so by a kind of "art" which permits them to endure the paradox/"tragic knowledge". This rings true to me. But it alone is not enough. With our ears now open, the next step is the myth-making Socrates who, like a melody, provides the kernel before the form, unfolding 'from the heart of things'.

    June 21, 2014

  • SB

    Yes, indeed! I will be there. Looking forward to it. :)

    1 · June 16, 2014

    • Brian

      Great, cya Shera :)

      June 20, 2014

  • Mike B.

    Imran, "Europe's greatest misfortune." Are you quoting someone?

    June 20, 2014

    • Imran M.

      That's Nietzsche writing to Prof. Overbeck. He's tracing the whole business of reading morality into nature as having been systematized by Parmenides and Plato.

      June 20, 2014

    • Brian

      Sounds like Nietzche, not imran

      June 20, 2014

  • Brian

    A quick defense against Socrates as 'theoretical man": Plato's Charmides points out that if self-knowledge includes knowing what one does *not* know this CANNOT mean needing some sort of knowledge of knowledge, which is impossible. In any case, it would be of no good/use toward living the happy life. Nor can entail any 'science of the good". He warns against any 'physician' of knowledge' that would treat only the head, without supplying 'the charm' that treats the soul. i.e., our whole being. Socrates' emphasis on 'doing our own work'-that which no one can do for us- is consistent with the existentialist insight, and definitely is not compatible with Nietzsche's worry that theoretical man, in the wake of Socrates, is nothing but the lapping of waves through history hoping to improve on the past.

    June 20, 2014

    • Imran M.

      "I have just been reading... Simplicius' commentary on Epictetus; here one can see clearly before one the whole philosophical scheme in which Christianity became imbedded, so that this "pagan" philosopher's book makes the most Christian impression imaginable (except that the whole world of Christian emotion and pathology is missing-"love,"­ as Paul speaks of it, "fear of God," and so on). The falsifying of everything actual by morality stands there in fullest array: wretched psychology, the "philosopher" reduced to the stature of "country parson." And it is all Plato's fault! He is still Europe's greatest misfortune."

      June 20, 2014

  • Brian

    "Like the artist, theoretical man takes infinite pleasure in all that exists. . . but while the artist, having unveiled the truth garment by garment, remains with us gaze fixed on what is still hidden, theoretical man takes delight in the cast garments and finds his highest satisfaction in the unveiling process itself, which proves to him his own power."

    What is the relation to the scientific "illusion" of correcting nature which seems to go beyond this unveiling process.

    June 20, 2014

    • Imran M.

      Theoretical man wants to assert his power over nature by revealing all appearances as illusions. But since he's just fighting his own inferiority, he's willing to stop there, collecting some of his insights as philosophy to enjoy for himself and giving them over to science to help its war against nature (by making us live longer, altering the weather, driving our predators in zoos and to extinction, etc. But the artist really wants to face truth, not just pursue truth to feel better about her finitude. She keeps staring in the abyss of existence,wanting to see further, even after having revealed the appearances as illusions.

      June 20, 2014

  • Imran M.

    “At last the horizon appears free to us again, even granted that it is not bright; at last our ships may venture out again, venture out to face any danger; all the daring of the lover of knowledge is permitted again; the sea, our sea, lies open again; perhaps there has never yet been such an ‘Open sea’.”

    2 · June 19, 2014

  • Brian

    "[A] man crying triumph for Zeus
    will meet with wisdom totally –
    Zeus who put men on wisdom's road,
    who gave 'Suffer and learn'
    authority.
    Misery from pain remembered drips;
    instead of sleep before the heart; good sense
    comes even to the unwilling." [masked])

    This comes from Aeschylus's play. The phrase "Suffer and learn" -pathei mathos in the original Greek- is the idea of mathematizing suffering, gaining wisdom against our will by taking the choppy waters of being on wisdom's road. Interesting, huh?

    1 · June 18, 2014

  • Brian

    "..science, spurred by its powerful illusion, speeds irresistibly towards its limits where its optimism, concealed in the essence of logic, suffers shipwreck.. Theoretical man, alarmed and dissatisfied with at his own consequences, no longer dares entrust himself to the terrible ice-stream of existence. He runs timidly up and down the shore."

    1 · June 16, 2014

10 went

People in this
Meetup are also in:

Sign up

Meetup members, Log in

By clicking "Sign up" or "Sign up using Facebook", you confirm that you accept our Terms of Service & Privacy Policy