Lindseye Greye

Even though I'm still a newbie, I'm committed to this group. I'll go wherever the group goes. :)

0 · March 23, 2012

Chad

I think Chad's suggestion also mentioned "alcohol."

0 · March 23, 2012

A former member

Well I am going to bow out on how you want the group to conform, but if people are having problems with the sharing then you can sign up at keepandshare.com for a free account and then if all you want to critique sign up to and you make a group you can privatley share your work and they can even ad edits to it. Here is a link to my last reading (no editing done) http://www.keepandshare.com/doc...

0 · March 22, 2012

Navin

I miss the Big Wick, but I'll go to the Stivers Stronghold.

0 · March 22, 2012

Matt

I'm down the road from Wick's, but it's an apartment. All I have in the fridge is Yoo-Hoo and Cocoa Puffs, so if you want anything else, you'd have to bring it with you.

1 · March 22, 2012

John Stivers

We could meet at my house, if it's not too far out.

Dave--send me a copy of the email list.

0 · March 22, 2012

Dave

Good. An entire overhaul might end up ruining the good we got. Besides, I'm swamped with other things now. Let's see if our steady members continue the upward trend. We need a get together, as Chad mentioned. Who's a little tired of Wick's pizza? At a restaurant (not Wick's) or someone's house, but not advertised to 1st-timers. We can chat about group related stuff, but mostly socialize. If anyone needs an member's email address I have a list.

1 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

hearing someone read their work for the first time, it's not easy to come up with a lot of informed, intelligent comments - at least it's not for me. If I can read the work ahead of time, I can make thorough comments. I realize that not everyone can do this. But, if you can't, realize that I can only make a general critique - and I may or may not have written comments to make. That's my take, folks...

0 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

I think Dave is right - maybe right now we should just stick to exchanging work through email, for those of us that want comments that way. Obviously, given all of the comments that have gone on in this discussion, people are concerned with more than just the no shows. I think it's great that we are all so interested in this group that we are sharing our ideas like this. Re verbal vs. written comments - I may be able to make a general written comment here or there on your copy, but again...

0 · March 22, 2012

John Stivers

Remember the old saying: When you're up to your ass in alligators it's hard to remember you just came to drain the swamp. What started as a discussion about no shows has morphed into suggestions for a major reworking of the group. We seem to have a handle on the no-show thing. Why change anything else. Now that doesn't mean you guys can share your work with each other in advance and spin off into a second group.

1 · March 22, 2012

John Stivers

Marking the manuscripts is important--if not, why do we bother bringing copies? I'm like Madeline-usually working on mine the day before.

0 · March 22, 2012

Dave

...some comments are best written on the copy so as not to waste group time minor points. Some critters feel they need to share every last idea that crossed their mind.

0 · March 22, 2012

Dave

...in other groups in the past. Erin you are the kind of member we look for, someone who contributes to the group from the start. I think a 2nd monthly mtg is premature. We don't have a huge amount of regular committed members yet. Actively exchanging writing in between will seem more like a 2nd mtg. You should pick your exchanger(s). Do you want a new member to send you a 100,000 manuscript? Impriving critting would help everyone. Less grammar, limit redundant or need not be shared comments

0 · March 22, 2012

Dave

...effort on this. Also, the best way to share writing is to personally invite someone. I thank Amy and Matt and others for critting mine ahead of time or at least reading it 1st. I have pleaded for ppl to give me their stuff early so I can crit it better. Before presenting tell ppl "write down all your comments, I don't like underlining w/no comments" etc. I get snickers when I ask ppl to write their name on a copy. geez. Amy you'd make a great 2nd group leader. don't be humble you've been

0 · March 22, 2012

Dave

I am aiming for the May mtg to announce a 1-time $5 membership fee to all 1st-time attenders. Yes, you all are grandfathered in. Please remind me if I fail to put this in the May mtg announcement. Accepting criticism and improving are critical, but it is a process and sometimes painful. Group leaders share these ideas before a small group starts. I want to strongly encourage the strategy that presenters take notes as a rule and speaks AFTER critiquers have finished discussion. We need group

1 · March 22, 2012

Madeline Norman

I agree multiple meetings would be nice. My issue with sending work ahead of time is that quite often I am revising up until I print on Friday night. I'm never satisfied. I agree with a one-time fee, banning no-shows, and limiting small groups to 6-8 (what if we have an odd #).

0 · March 22, 2012

Navin

I don't think John or anyone else needs, or even wants, corrections to typos and grammar. We can find and deal with those on our own. John's point about making comments on the hard copy has to do with the fact that 1. the writer cannot keep up with comments from everyone and write them down at the same time. 2. there is not enough time for each critiquer to deliver every comment we have verbally. We can each mention a few points and note a few others on the hard copy.

1 · March 22, 2012

Matt

Amy I'd agree about the sending work ahead of time, but that's something that members have to be serious about doing or it can fall on the list of things we say but never really do. Like when you bump into an acquaintance and say, "We should REALLY get together sometime!" Ha--yeah, right. Maybe for those who'd like to (because remember, that'd be an extra commitment to critique other's work during the month) we could set up a list of e-mail exchanges. Might work, but it's extra commitment.

0 · March 22, 2012

Matt

Whatever the changes, this kind of reasoned discussion can't be anything but good for the group. It's motivating just to see so many people care. Give yourselves a pat on the back and take the rest of the day off--SCRATCH that go write 4,000 more words right now. What--are you on vacation?

0 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

to make thoughtful written comments. and, I'm not at the meeting to correct the reader's typos or grammar either - I'm there to give my immediate reaction to the work. and I'll add, in the other writing groups I've taken part in, we usually did send each other our work ahead of time.

0 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

going back to John's point about some of his copies he got back not having any comments - I don't feel, personally, that I usually have enough time to write down comments, considering that usually I'm trying to take in the reading, and make verbal comments to the reader. I consider it the reader's responsibility to write down comments he/she feels are germane. I take it as my responsibility to talk about my immediate reaction to the work. If I received the work ahead of time, I would be able...

1 · March 22, 2012

Navin

3. We seem to have always had no-shows, and dismembering habitual no-showers has been the suggestion we have talked about in the past. I think it is still a good one. A couple of folks who were dismembered have asked to rejoin. If someone is serious enough to want to join the group again that way, we can let them have that option.

4. I like Matt's idea of limiting each small group to six readers. It helps readers plan the number of copies, and keeps our critiquing brains fresh for everyone.

1 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

yeah, the thing about working on a novel is, meeting once a month is indeed a bit of a slow go, as far as getting feedback. meeting more often with a few folks would be very motivating for me.

0 · March 22, 2012

Navin

2. I am often late. I understand when someone else is late. Reading a latecomer's work, including mine, only if there is time, is a fair rule to follow. I do not think latecomers should be shunned from staying and critiquing, with the understanding that there may not be time to read their work.

1 · March 22, 2012

Navin

I like several of the ideas that have come up:

1. Set a standard: I think the standard Matt suggested is the only one we can set--is a member serious about their writing and able to accept critiques well? The point of coming to a writers' group is to have your work critiqued. If someone does not want that, they are wasting both their and our time.

0 · March 22, 2012

Erin

Ooh ---I would love a second meeting. Once a month is like chipping away at the tip of the iceberg. I'd have to come for like 3 years to bring my entire novel in pieces. I totally wouldn't mind paying a small fee, either.

I'm cool with Amy moderating. I don't mind to help out in whatever way necessary also (but considering I've only been coming for 3 months --I'm probably not the best choice for a leader)

1 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

given the fact that quite a few of us would like to get our work out into the wide world at some point -

1 · March 22, 2012

Amy Jackson

I like the idea of a second, "semi-pro" group. I mean, heck, I'll step up for that - but I am a relative newbie, so I don't know if y'all would go for that. At any rate - I think Dave's idea of a one-time fee isn't a bad idea. And I agree with John that having some kind of standard is doable - of course we will have to work through what exactly that standard is, but this kind of discussion is probably a good idea...

1 · March 22, 2012

Chad

Just to follow up on John's point, setting standards is not the same as elitist. If this were a music group, we certainly would exclude the tone deaf. We're just snubbing the literary tone deaf, that's all.

1 · March 22, 2012

Chad

The idea of a second group has come up before. Dave doesn't have the time to lead a second group. So if someone else wants to step up and lead a second group, then speak up. Otherwise, we'll have to table that option.

0 · March 22, 2012

A former member

And this could always be a temporary arrangement - we could try out the two different "kinds" of meetings for the rest of the year and then decide which direction would work best for the group.

If, by then, we get to the point where we've got a dozen "vetted" writers regularly ready to present something every two weeks, it might even make sense - from a logistical perspective - to "close" the group to new members for a bit, simply because any more presenters would make the meetings unwieldy.

0 · March 22, 2012

A former member

I wonder - might there be a "combination" or "middle ground"?

We've talked before about having a second meeting each month, perhaps on a Sunday afternoon. After all, many writing groups, especially the more "serious" ones meet weekly.

What if one meeting was the "open" one, and the other was "by application"? That way newbies or the uncertain could still "check out" the group, while the "vetted" writers would still get the benefit of reliable feedback each month.

0 · March 22, 2012

John Stivers

As for vetting, I think we absolutely need to do that. Having some standards is not the same as being elitist. I have been a member of writing groups that included published authors (who were earning a living writing books) and relative newbies. They had standards and voted in members, and even socialized a bit. It worked, and it was fun, and I not only learned a lot but considered the criticism valid because it came from good writers. We should not try to be the group for everyone.

0 · March 22, 2012

John Stivers

Let's keep the discussion to the issues at hand.

2 · March 22, 2012

A former member

>> I don't recall anybody telling bad jokes.

Sorry, Erv... I'll try harder to be more memorable next time.

Though the way John always greets me with a "Oh no, not *you* again..." I thought I _was_ being memorable...

Hmmm.

0 · March 22, 2012

A former member

>> So you are not the only crazy cat person!!

Hey, I'm not crazy.

My parents had me tested _years_ ago, and that's what they showed. Well, most of them showed. 4 out of 7 is most. Meow! :-P

>> Un-wad your panties, LP

I'm happy to report that they aren't wadded these days. I solved that problem by switching from Hanes to Victoria's Secret.

So as long as the cats don't get into my underwear drawer again, I'll be fine.

At least, that's what my doctor keeps promising...

0 · March 21, 2012

A former member

LP you are not the only one who feeds 19 cats!!! Well we only have 15 cats and 5 horses, but I feed the feral colonies once a week and help at the local rescue too. So you are not the only crazy cat person!!

0 · March 21, 2012

Madeline Norman

Un-wad your panties, LP. We EXPECT Navin to be late. We understand things happen. We are trying to come up with enforceable consequences for breaches of etiquette, not kick out regulars! And you can always add a comment on the site for your eta.

1 · March 21, 2012

A former member

>> Anyone coming after 10:15 will be shunned

As someone who lives about 75 minutes away from Wick's - plus the extra 20 minutes to stop at Staples to make copies - and thus is somewhat at the mercy of traffic (including the bridge), I don't think I like that idea.

And I think Navin also has to travel quite some time to get there.

And _anyone_ can be delayed by traffic, or a broken alarm clock, or problems while feeding 19 cats. Oh, no, wait, that last one's just me.

Anyway, um, pfft

0 · March 21, 2012

Dave

However I 'advertise' the group, a high percent of prospective members don't bother to read what's on it. I am motivated when I am around others who put effort in their writing, who obviously improve and inspire me to do more through seeing their dedication. I hope we can all shoot for this.

0 · March 21, 2012

Dave

I want a group that challenges me to make my writing better so I can get published with all the benefits thereof. But I want to keep it fun. I don't want wishy-washy start/end times. Overly serious and some cool people get intimidated, set the bar too low and talented people may assume they will waste their time with losers. Louisville has new talent move to town all the time. Charging a 1-time membership fee of $5.00 may keep out the 1-and-doners.

0 · March 21, 2012

Lindseye Greye

Oh, and on the question of "vetting". I would have to say this seems too subjective and--for lack of a better word--elitist. One of the things about this group that I like most is the diversity--in styles and abilities. Voting someone in or out based on their writing is an unappealing option, to me. As for critique participation...I've seen some people offer a LOT of comments while others may only offer a few, but the value of ANY criticism outweighs the amount. I'm done now. :)

0 · March 21, 2012

A former member

Just my thoughts from a newbie. If you advertise that this is a semi-pro group you will loose a lot of potential people, due to the fact that most new writer are afraid to come and read their work in front of others. I know it took a lot for me to do it. I agree that if people sign up and do not show then they should not be allowed to come back for a specified period of time. Although for me unless I have my husband read at the next two, I will not have my writing heard as I will be working.

0 · March 21, 2012

Erv Klein

I don't recall anybody telling bad jokes.

1 · March 21, 2012

Lindseye Greye

My $0.02...I definitely agree that newbies should attend a minimum of 1 mtg before they can present work. As for latecomers, I would suggest some sort of signal to keep them from interrupting a group in the middle of a presentation, but allow them in after that critique is finished. A sock on the door??
Anyone coming after 10:15 will be shunned and not allowed to join for that day. Dismemberment (CHAD!!!) seems a bit harsh, and should perhaps be reserved for people who tell bad jokes.....

0 · March 21, 2012

A former member

In my time with the group I have found it to be more towards what John just said. A semi-pro group that is looking to grow and expand and help each other become better writers. I know from my experience that I am a better writer today because of the crits I have gotten concerning my work.

1 · March 21, 2012

John Stivers

It is absolutely possible to have a group that is semi-pro, with most seeking to be published, and keep it fun. I know this because it has been done before.

0 · March 21, 2012

Chad

I don't think we're going to resolve this on-line. Perhaps a special session of the Stuffed Owls is in order. With lots of booze.

2 · March 21, 2012

Madeline Norman

To be frank (instead of Madeline), if we were a hard-ass, "professional" group, I would have been too intimidated to come in the first place. I hope we don't lose our personality and what I see as our group values in an effort to improve one fly in the ointment.

2 · March 21, 2012

Chad

I'm not sure you can make a punch-list of "standards." But, Matt hit a homerun by listing "improvement." If someone isn't going to listen to criticism, we probably aren't the right group for them. Beyond that, it's easy to identify bad prose. Or bland prose.

0 · March 21, 2012