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Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 8/15/12 questions and discussion

From: Siva
Sent on: Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:44 PM
Imagination + Knowledge = More knowledge

Siva

On 8/19/12, Jon Anderson <[address removed]> wrote:
> 8/15/12 questions and discussion
>
> 1-why are we moral?3
> 2-is imagination more important than knowledge?8
> 3-can we imagine an objective ideal of heaven?3
> 4-why don't we embrace the complicated?5
> 5-what is true consciousness and how do you achieve it?5
>
> ================
>
> is imagination more important than knowledge?
>
> Bob: I recently learned that this was Albert Einstein's opinion. There is a
> saying: "Knowledge becomes lumber in a week." If you hang on to knowledge it
> becomes useless. Is it knowledge to know of heaven rather than am imagined
> one?
>
> Jon: you agree with Albert?
>
> Bob: I'm a sceptic!
>
> Danny: by knowledge do you mean memorized or discovered?
>
> Bob: knowledge is suspect to me
>
> Jamie: thought really relies on imagination to be built into our brain. We
> learn patterns, then we figure out how they work. From there we get
> knowledge.  We need imagination to link the patterns together. We want to
> keep on going forward. We can't figure out the whole picture, we can't get
> total knowledge. Without language we can't convey knowledge.
>
> Jon: can we convey imagination without knowledge?
>
> Jamie: shared communication is required.
>
> Art:  patterns. Everything has a language. Intelligence is pattern seeking.
> The guy who invented Mathematica says computers eventually will only be
> pattern machines that figure things out. Computer memory wont be needed
> anymore.
>
> Lucy: are there different patterns for different languages?
>
> Art: the inventor of Mathematica thinks it's how humans think. Mathematica
> is a commercial algorithms.
>
> Mike: an example of these algorithms we see when we're using Google and the
> website gets the answer before we finish typing our search words.
>
> Art: imagination is the ability to see relations between patterns.
>
> Jamie: then would more intelligent people see patterns better and quiker?
>
> Art: I don't know exactly what intelligence is.
>
> Jon: Socrates famously declared that all he knew was that he knew nothing.
>
> Bob: the more one knows the more one doesn't know.
>
> Lucy: we're talking about the difference between experiential and rote
> knowledge. The context is so important. I was bored today and a co-worker
> told me to use my imagination! For the task at hand at that moment that just
> wasn't possible. Unstructured learning: I get ideas all the time; we can
> feed imagination and knowledge. It's not black and white
>
> Bob: what if one has knowledge without imagination? It's like having all the
> ingredients for soup without knowing how to make soup/put those ingredients
> together.
>
> Jamie: how might emotion play into this?
>
> Lucy: I can try to draw emotions from everything I do. I've talked here
> before about learning from pain.
>
> Mike: lately I've been taken with the Mars landing and the Olympic
> ceremonies. I marvel at how they can put it together. For the Mars trip,
> someone had to imagine it before it could be accomplished. A one two punch:
> imagination and knowledge. Knowledge has to be available .. Mencken, the
> famous writer wrote 7 days a week! Someone asked him  how he did it. He said
> it's simple: just put a sheet of paper in a typewriter and wait until the
> tiny drops of blood appear on your forehead!
>
> Bob: I watched an interview of two writers on talk show once where they
> admitted that sometimes their best writing happens when they feel crummy.
>
> Eric: imagination sometimes gets a bad rap. A certain shame. Impractical,
> head in the clouds. It's not necessarily reasonable. Knowledge can be
> dangerous when one feels they are certain. What if you really don't know?. A
> girlfriend of mine once said "I know what I'm saying." She knew what was
> best. Getting stuck on certainty can cause real pain. Creativity ca help us
> not get stuck in our ideas. We could encorge more imagination.
>
> Ben: knowledge rote generates for us a track record, even though it doesn'thttp://www.google...­
> necessarily lead anywhere new. If imagination is valuable it's for that:
> going somewhere new.
>
> Bob: people's attachments to knowledge (certainty) are about fear of losing
> their worlds.
>
> Eric: knowledge is power but imagination is left out unfortunately
>
> Danny: domestication despises creativity. No one owns knowledge but
> imagination we do own. Creativity counters the domestication effort.
>
> Bob: is domestication the same as status quo?
>
> Danny: yes
>
> Ben: I heard of a group of Chinese students who were very good at memorizing
> but had trouble talking about what their knowledge means.
>
> Matt: I've been reading about fringe science (the inventor Tesla). I've been
> questioning the things we take for granted. Taking second looks at new ways
> of doing things is often not useful to capitalism. In 1943 Tesla ran a
> electric car without batteries for several days. What else is out there that
> we're missing that would be of help? Tesla and Einstein fed off of previous
> knowledge as they imagined new things. Music is never objective. It's always
> taken from a brain that's been influenced in a unique way. The subconscious
> is a crazy machine!
>
> Danny: more things exist in the imagination than in the world of knowledge.
> Consciousness is part of the universal will. If I imagine it, it exists in
> the universe. Knowledge is limited. But imagination is infinite. Imagination
> inspires knowledge. Empirical vs. irrational.
>
> Lucy: some occupations are proscribed. There are some people who know how
> things work but not why they work. There are things for which I would know
> the "how" for but not the "why ." When we try to understand how things work
> we must use our imaginations.
>
> Matt: something that bothers me is the gap between architects and builders.
> Frank Lloyd Wright made beautiful structures but unfortunately some of them
> have suffered from not being structurally sound. This happened because he
> never built them himself.
>
> Lucy: I still believe there are "7 kinds of intelligence."
>
> Bob: empathy takes imagination
>
> Lucy: empathy is needed to overcome one's certainty and connect with others.
> When I studied writing in college I had a teacher who said "every word has
> been used." What we do when creative is re=arranging the words to make it
> new.
>
> Art: in Germany the architects start out as laborers..
>
> Ben: imagination with knowledge can err more likely due to certainties that
> aren't tested/proven.
>
> Art: I've imagined a lot of things and there are times when additional
> knowledge is needed. Capitalism is for the people with the information and
> who are unwilling to learn more. They suppress imagination to keep from
> losing the advantage. This may be unavoidable for our species.
>
> Lucy: is capitalism a fault?
>
> Art: it's the way we do things.
>
> Danny: pure capitalism is not possible.
>
> Bob: capitalism communism evolution are products of imagination and one can
> feel personally attached to what they've imagined.
>
> Art: that's an ego thing.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> This message was sent by Jon Anderson ([address removed]) from The Saint
> Paul Socrates Cafe.
> To learn more about Jon Anderson, visit his/her member profile:
> http://www.meetup...­
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>
>

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