Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 5/23/12 questions and discussion

From: Mike M.
Sent on: Sunday, September 30, 2012 9:11 PM
A SHORT HISTORY OF HOMOSEXUALITY
 
A long time ago, when humans were initially being bottled at the plant , costs had gotten out of control and it became necessary to initiate cutbacks. After a series of meetings between management & labor, it was agreed that Quality Control contributed nothing to the bottom line and that that entire unit could be eliminated. Production continued ever more effiiciently, no one seemed to notice (or care) that the product often varied from the original recipe, and there were no more rumors about off-shoring the plant.

After the passage of some time, a man and woman were living together in a cave. There was very little to do in those days (even buses had not been invented); the nights were the worst for the couple, even after they'd
gotten cable and joined the local church. One night they invented sex.  (It was never really clear who thought it upand  the couple divorced within a couple of years).
From: Jon Anderson <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Thursday, May 24,[masked]:41 AM
Subject: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 5/23/12 questions and discussion

5/23/12 questions and disussion

1-how might we behave differently if happiness and success were of equal importance?
2-should sex education be fun?4
3-how true is "out of sight, out of mind"?3
4-what effect would allowing only humans to participate in elections have?3
5-was the creation of the universe a mistake?4

======================

5-is homosexuality a mental illness?5

Danny: people mostly look at this question either morally or religiously but few look at it logically. Orgasm comes as the result of the stimulation of nerves. If one is blindfolded and those nerves are stimulated what does it matter which gender did the stimulating? Everything is mental.

Mike: is your love life just about orgasm?

Danny: the difference between a romantic and a friendly relationship is orgasm. Sex, other than for procreation, is about orgasm.

Mike: affectional relationships are more complicated. When people are married they sometimes have no orgasms but their bond persists. What is a mental illness?

Danny: in this case it's about a distortion from reality. Maybe illness is too strong a word/wrong word. Calling oneself Abe Lincoln is a distortion.

Mike: is nature an intending thing?

Art: mental illness is disconnection from reality. I'm curious about the nature or nurture debate. Those who argue homosexuality is "just a choice" should defend it as an individual freedom. Choice and freedom are synonymous.

Danny: as a choice it can't be a mental illness.

Jon: [to Danny] have you ever felt romantically about someone without having sex with them?

Danny: yes but I WANTED to have sex!

Mike: I play solitaire, is that a mental illness?

Danny: it's illogical.

Mike: is it a biological thing or a learned thing?
Danny: there are two reasons for sex: procreation or orgasm.

Mike: Humans are very flexible behaviorally. Any functional potential I have -- if it serves me -- I can do it. Where does your assumption come from?

Danny: coitus plus seed = new life. Since the organs have pleasure centers it seems logical that it's to create life. Same sex can not accomplish this.

Jeremy: the female-male assumption goes to hell when we consider hermaphrodites. Male and female are social constructs. Sexuality is a spectrum, all gray areas. You can't find a dividing line. Defining mental illness is very problematic. We tend to call things we don't understand mental illness. Labels are the problem. Homosexuality is a social construct.

Art: sex is to both create as well as live life; to become human, kind. Jeremy's right there are probably 9 million kinds of reasons for sexual activity.

Kate: society is mentally ill if it views homosexuality as an illness. I agree with the sliding scale metaphor Jeremy describes. Many of us females are more sliding scale with romance. We females receive as much emotional joy from our friends as from lovers. Homosexual relationships are more emotionally intense due to their more similar chemical and psychological makeups. There are cultures which remove female's clitorises. It's would be incorrect to say those females can't be romantic. Females are more driven to communication in relationships and not not so much to orgasm. A sexuality spectrum is very important. Pansexual folk can choose anything on the spectrum.

Mike: I've often thought of male and female as political categories. Everyone is attracted to a small subset of humanity and may find those attractive features in either gender.

Kate: there can be appreciation without sexual contact.

Jon: can there be a romance without sexual contact?

Kare: yes. I currently have a friend I'm very attracted to yet that relationship is without sex. Those relationships wherein I'm sexually attracted are more carnal than romantic.

Siva: there is no such thing as homosexual. One can only be attracted to what one perceives. Sexuality is a complex of the human psyche. The Masculine and the Feminine are attracted to each other but this attraction doesn't require opposite genders. The masculine is about coveting and the feminine is about being coveted. Victorian morality has distorted our senses of sexuality. We need not feel compelled to meet societal expectations. Anyone who confines their or others' sexual identity is the ill one.

Jon: I myself, perhaps like Kate said, find carnal relationships lack romance. I have difficulty enjoying both the carnal and the romantic. Before I ever met a gay person I was of the mind that it was in fact an illness. However once I had befriended a gay person I realized my previous conviction was not based on any actual experiences or knowledge on my part, and the experiences I was having with gay friends totally contradicted my illness assumptions. I had a choice between my belief vs. my experience. I chose experience.

Mike: using Danny's logic, making as many babies with as many women is natural.

Danny: it wouldn't be an issue were it not for social domestication. "Real Man/Real Woman" stuff. Without that training by our society as to what a man is and does, what a real woman is and does, we would be attracted to others in dominant is attracted to submissive (and visa versa). Homosexuality wouldn't occur in this more honest reality.

Jeremy: Sexuality is such a curious notion. Why do certain body shapes equal gender? I don't even try to define it to myself. There are no rules, yet I feel there are rules!

Mike: Danny's ideas seem stereotyped.

Siva: for six years I lived as a female to explore my feminine side. It was fun. It made sense.

Danny: what about the opposite sex did you hope to experience?

Siva: nothing in particular, other than whatever my feminine side was.





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