Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 1/9/13 questions and discussion

From: user 3.
Sent on: Wednesday, January 16, 2013 8:36 AM
Individuals are meaning. I am god, I create my own meaning...hopefully without stepping on others' meaning. It's fun to "dictionary" our lives--thus we create the meaning of each word as it relates to ourselves.


From: "Ken Schaaf" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Tuesday, January 15,[masked]:44:22 PM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 1/9/13 questions and discussion

Jon;
   Can't make this weeks meeting, will send my avatar.    Ken.

On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 12:50 PM, Sean <[address removed]> wrote:
Jon, did this make any difference to you? It doesn't make any difference to me. Forget about taking pills to be happy - I have to take pills to keep from being depressed. And it's not working right now.


On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Jon Anderson <[address removed]> wrote:
1/9/13 questions and discussion

1-why do people dislike psychotherapy?4
2-why do we bother with good vs. evil?6
3-is self segregation good for us?7
4-what does true wealth mean?7
5-what makes people successful in life?5
6-what's the meaning of meaning?9
7-what would be a perfect fit in Macy's location?2
8-what will happen when computers do our thinking for us?6

============================

what's the meaning of meaning?

Tor: we failed at this before here a few years ago. People who find meaning in their jobs and lives live longer and healthier. What makes us die early is known but we haven't figured out what to add to our lives to live longer/better. A friend of mine, a doctor in Oslo has medical records back to the 1700s. His PHD thesis on this; I was looking at meaning at the companies I helped. To my amazement for some it was meaningful that some just had a job. It's about how they handle their jobs. In Man's Search for Meaning, by Franckl, in Auschwitz he practiced psychotherapy. What is of primary importance is how we react to what's around us, not what's there. If it's making you unhappy think of things that make you happy. This is where Franckl’s book comes from. This is intuitive. Then meaning means a feeling.

Jon: how sure are you of this?

Tor: since we first talked of this 5 years ago it's really been on my mind. A mistake is made when one lets those around them decide what their meaning is. All feelings of meaning require a healthy combination of these three: stress, satisfaction and control.

Genius: purpose gives one meaning.

Tor: purpose is on the horizon, meaning is here right now.

Genius: I help individuals develop themselves, their purpose.

Tor: meaning is philosophical.

Kevin: it doesn't matter what it is, what matters is the meaning. It's a deeper understanding of understanding. Understanding oneself is key.

Jon: can we all do this?

Kevin: everyone can.
Mike: it's “don't smoke, get sleep, have friends, get exercise.” Those who live that way might have dull lives. Wouldn't a better model be to study the things we do when our happiness is highest.

Tor: it's an upside down curve over the course of a human life with our happiness high at birth, then steadily going down until we pass the teen years. Thereafter the line rises steadily. Basically the older on is the happier one is likely to be.

Jon: Mike, does you life have meaning?

Mike: very meaningful by doing difficult and unpleasant things. That's what made it meaningful.

Art: this may be a tautology. The meaning of meaning is to exist, to be. Purpose is the things we do to be, to exist. We exist via sensation.

Jon: I have to take pills to feel happy. How much control does someone like me in terms of the meaning of their life if their fundamental happiness is controlled by body chemistry and their willpower is almost useless (except if one is living in a culture that has appropriate anti-depressant medications) to change it?

Christine: thoughts and feelings seems richer and of greater volume with increased age. Franckl wrote that the experiences of people over time amass, and that's something we can't take away. So there's great meaning for them in that and it seems undeniable. I tell my partner I love elderly people. They know everything. My question is: is it a challenge to meaning to raise this question? I feel it is neither negative nor positive. I accept the meaning of each individuals. 

Jon: why?

Tor: signals come out and we are mystified by it, want to know its meaning. I think it has to be meaningful. We'll never give this up, even if it means making meaning up. Our discussing it does indeed challenge meaning.

Matt: it's human ingenuity and imagination. The computer mouse originally had no use. People like Steve Jobs eventually found a use for it -- a very important use.

Jon: does your life have meaning?

Matt: more now than ever before, I’m accumulated experience and being ok.

Eric: Franckl is my meaning source. Stories, words have meaning. I know not when I have it. We have to have meaning. We are hardwired for it. Meaning is practical.

Rachel: do we cease to exist without it?

Eric: no

Rachel: can meaning be learned?

EricL: we can learn to access what we possess.

Tor: Kant says we learn meaning. Before we learn it there is no meaning.

Eric: we work out meaning between ourselves. Looking for meaning can cause a disconnect, not working right when we become fixed on what things mean. 

Jon: does meaning exist independent of us?

Eric: maybe

Matt: isn't that the ultimate subjective term, "meaning"? With words, they are built upon over time.

Mike: I know of the story of the man who did the most work deciphering the Rosetta Stone. This must have given him a sense of meaning. I wonder if his bosses brought in new stones to see if he'd be interested in lesser stones.

Tor: up to that moment of Singularity (see Kurzweil), we are the gods, the creators. 




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