Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 4/3/13 questions and discussion

From: user 1.
Sent on: Tuesday, April 9, 2013 1:59 PM

Yes but the education system is junior and/or subset and/or synergistic to politics/national security and economics. There's no need to lie.  That dude should of just said it straight up, or through another if he didnt want to get fired, etc. Thank you for joking!

On Apr 9,[masked]:41 AM, "Sandee jo" <[address removed]> wrote:

If the high-ranking official had done his homework he would have found that norm-referenced tests are not a good measure of what the students know nor how good the teacher is at teaching. We see this at all levels of government: make rules that sound good on the surface and hope for the best. Minnesota schools, known nationally as the system-that-is-most-likely-to-jump-on-every-educational-bandwagon, have been playing with this very idea for decades. The problem being that we also have schools with children from as many as 34 nations. Cheating on norm-referenced tests is actually a good idea, certainly some citizenship test-proctors have done it for years. When a few people decide what everyone should be able to answer correctly would require cloning testees...but let's not go there. 

 

I think your question about his modeled values is interesting. I would say that he is reacting normally to a nonsensical law. We are starting to see more and more of these immoral laws enacted so more and more model citizens will find ways around the nonsense of government-as-parent! I would add that most of us mind our manners more when we're in public. Unless we are very rich, we are often shunned by most if we share all of our bodily functions wherever we are. I also think that if one does not play the game in public office one won't hold that office very long. 

 


rom: "Mike McGrath" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, April 8,[masked]:11:17 AM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 4/3/13 questions and discussion

I come from a field where it is strongly held that you don't know what you are until you are ''tested''. It is also a near universal belief that crime is the result of the illegitimate pursuit of money, sex and/or power.
Let us consider a successful, high ranking school administrator. He lives responsibly, works hard, does volunteer work, goes to church and seems to be a dedicated professional. One day he is assigned responsibility for ensuring all pupils in his district pass the newly mandated national student test.
Preliminary results suggest that a very large number of students will not pass the tests. This would result in tremendous embarasment for the educators and students, chaos in the schools' management, a tremendous amount of anger, finger pointing and public ridicule, as well as a loss of ''bonus pay'' most of the teachers felt they were going to receive.
 
After some soul searching and a careful cost-benefit analysis, our administrator decides the best course of action is to cheat. After his actions are detected, he says he did it to protect the schools' reputation.
 
Aside from what the legal system might decide, can we conclude that his publicly modeled values were a complete falsehood ?
From: Sandee jo <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Monday, April 8,[masked]:09 AM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 4/3/13 questions and discussion

I would ask: Were you in a power position over the folks you may have imposed your values upon? As a lifelong educator I never hesitated to share my values with others, they either chose to be imposed on, or not. When I have chosen to be imposed on, those values didn't last long...I went to the source to make sure the imposer was not garbelling the message. They often were. Unless you had your listeners by the throat, I doubt if you could impose your values on them. I'm not convinced that one can make any choice without values (there I go, imposing/sharing my values...).    

From: "j" <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, April 7,[masked]:21:06 PM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 4/3/13 questions and discussion

I believe you do. A gym once triple wammied me hardcore such that after the 3rd salesperson a few minutes later, I was left with a gym membership I didn't need. But now getting triple wammied is do recognizable that I'm probably going to stay with legit gyms for the rest of this life cycle. Scared straight works when it does.
On Apr 7,[masked]:50 PM, "Mike McGrath" <[address removed]> wrote:
I was born in the aftermath of WW II. I, of course adopted the values of my parents, their religious faith and my small town. I was strongly affected by industriousness, property, success, honor and independence. I tried to retain these values throughout my life.
Along the line, I also began to value arrogance, money, independence, agnosticism, judgmentalism and ends-justify-means.
More than once I was told during lively discussions that I 'had no right to impose my values on others'. That usually silenced me, at least for the short term. Yet I never let up on following my values; good, bad or otherwise.
 
I would not enjoy being held up as some type of role model or ''good person''. I've certainly have made my share of mistakes. However, it's very evident to me that all my important life choices were made in concert with my values.
 
I am left wondering if I did, indeed, have the right to impose my values on others ?
From: Siva <[address removed]>
To: [address removed]
Sent: Sunday, April 7,[masked]:31 AM
Subject: Re: [The-Saint-Paul-Socrates-Cafe] 4/3/13 questions and discussion

On 4/4/13, Jon Anderson <[address removed]> wrote:
> 4/3/13 questions and discussion
>
> 1-how much specialization can we tolerate?4
> 2-should we encourage public shaming and if yes, are there limitations?3
> 3-isn't it a good thing when really bad people kill themselves?2
> 4-which is more ethical: standing on principle or compromising?1
> 5-how does one make good life choices?5
> 6-how effective is sensitivity training?3
> 7-is food becoming a chore in America?
>
> ================================
>
> how does one make good life choices?

VALUES!

Values form the framework by which one can evaluate his/her life,
starting from childhood.

When those values are compatible w/actual human nature, they make the
difference between living a life that harnesses one's full potential,
or attempting unsuccessfully to live a life according to an external
pattern.

Good values are overwhelmingly those that focus on resilience (i. e.
fighting back against injustice), self-reliance, selfishness,
individual initiative, critical thinking/humility.  Those values
emphasize harnessing one's primal instincts (including aggressive
instincts) and intellectual self in a controlled fashion to achieve
success.

Bad values are overwhelmingly those that focus on "love thy neighbor",
dependence on others for support, blind obedience to authority, rote
learning (i. e. good grades = success), dogmatic arrogance, and most
of all, (deistic) religion.  Those values emphasize SUPPRESSING one's
primal and intellectual self to achieve success.  It never works.

>
> Tor: college undergraduates typically don't have a clue as to what they
> ought to study for. I was a student advisor for years and came to hate the
> "Strong interest test". Ellen Watts said we have to do from day one what we
> love to do, shunning all other options. Taking a job one hates in the
> meantime is wrong. You will find like-minded people if you stick with what
> inspires you, so it won't be long until you're a leader in this field. This
> is how consultants come into being. Since my days as advisor I met some of
> those former students, some say they wish they'd listened to me, or they
> fall around my neck in gratitude for having listened. I don't know how
> generalizable this anecdotal data is. But i believe if we love something, we
> won't tire of it. It's the "Devil's Ladder" = and endless ladder and if one
> loves the steps up it, you won't mind the endlessness.
>
> Rachel: what if what one loves to do something but doesn't have the capacity
> to succeed, or, capacity or no, they just don't succeed?
>
> Tor: they will find a way. They may not become a great athlete but they will
> become a great coach. As to capacity, this is the problem with schools.
> Schools ought to primarily seek to expand individual capacity instead of our
> present mass approach.
>
> Rachel: don't we need a base level of education?
>
> Tor: that's a tiny piece of and endless universe of things to learn. Treat
> teachers with gratitude and respect. We don't ask lawyers' clients to rate
> the but we do rate our teachers!
>
> Rachel: oh, come on, we rate each other all the time!
>
> Tor: it's easiest to spot a child's interests when they are youngest,
> Kindergarten. In a market economy having a variety of teachers is better
> than central planning. I see a future for us of an explosion of innovation
> and productivity. A school system that's out of step with changes happening
> in society is doing more harm than good.
>
> Eric: if my life choice was to teach, not ending doing that means something
> isn't right. I do feel a lot of my skills aren't being used. My volunteer
> work does better employ my strengths. As much as I want to teach, the system
> doesn't want me to teach. If the system holds one back, how do we get past
> it? I'm scared to death to take more tests.
> Because of my student loan debt I sometimes wonder if it was worth it, after
> all is said and done.
>
> Rachel: are you happy?
>
> Eric: happy enough. And I do hope to yet find my niche. The problem is how
> do we work around bad systems?
>
> Jon: I'm reading Michel Foucault's sociology text Discipline and Punish: the
> history of the prison. The section I'm reading now deals with the
> relationship between how we deal with criminals and how we deal with each
> other. He argues that fundamentally it's the same thing. That society today
> is test based, evaluation based, investigation based. That the West has
> simultaneously developed capitalism and societal structures need to expand
> that economic system via efficiencies, productivities, maximizing individual
> potential via accurate examination of individual skill sets. I describe this
> here tonight to suggest that perhaps this dynamic isn't necessarily always
> good. In my case, the times of my life that were most productive were when I
> studied Art. My time was largely unstructured and I mostly did what I wanted
> to do. As a result I felt fully engaged with what took my interest. I felt
> responsible for using my time well so my discipline was much better than
> now. Foucault's described categorization which is needed to best deal with
> both criminals and workers does not respond kindly to someone like me. I
> have nowhere to go in order to work in the way I work best. It doesn't exist
> here and now. Lastly, to Rachel's points, I once read Bill Gates told an
> interviewer that if he'd been born in the 1800s he would not have had the
> impact he's had now because his skill set -- perfectly suited to our current
> technological age -- would likely only have made him a good accountant in
> 1850.
>
> Mike: I take a long view on US education. We started it here in the 1700s
> with nothing and we overtook the rest of the world in short order. We did
> it. It was due to the fact that we have a meritocracy. Then, more and more
> outsiders and agenda types began to influence the system in the name of
> Fairness and Righteousness. We find ourselves now in the situation where
> jobs are disappearing (robots!!). In a meritocracy it's a kind of evolution,
> life finds a way. We need fewer workers, more innovators. Like our two young
> guests here tonight wasting their teen time hanging out with us because they
> know it will do them some good.
>
> Jon: can you imagine a gifted person being unable to reach their potential
> for reasons beyond their control?
>
> Mike: that's called "too bad!" We need only a tiny number of people anyway.
> If one's born on third base you still have to pass through rings of fire. We
> ought not regulate meritocracy.
>
> Rachel: pursuit to advance oneself doesn't mean one will reach their
> potential, or have an upward trajectory. Some of us have ample supports.
> Implied in the question is whether the end goal is to be self-providing,
> working within existing power structures. Ideally we are happy there, but
> just because something makes one happy doesn't mean one ought to pursue it.
> Just because we want to doesn't mean we get to. Being content is good. Being
> able to enjoy life to our best. When we start out our capacity is foremost
> in our minds. Being encouraged to follow our skill sets, etc. is a good.
>
> Jack: this seems to be about picking what one enjoys vs. what's practical.
> Our changing technology is indeed changing our work force. Naturally we each
> have our own interests but if the jobs are not in line with these interests,
> then what?
>
> [well, as Mike put it, it's Too Bad!]
>
>
>
>
>
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